FLAP SETTING DURING GUSTY CONDITIONS

[DCarlton]

I've flown a 67F for about 15 years; unfortunately operating from a coastal airport where the wind is typically steady right down the runway.  During gusty or very windy conditions, I seem to have better success landing with less flaps and a little more speed.  Typically nothing more than the takeoff flap setting.  Does anyone else adjust their flap settings during high wind conditions?  Thanks. 

[carusoam]

Right on target there DC...

Windy conditions drive the T/O flaps decision...

See if your POH covers the details...

adjusting landing speed is typical 1/2 the gust factor as any other plane...

For more variables related to proper landing speed and technique...

Find DonKaye... and his information package... Don is one of those CFII guys with lots of Mooney experience and awards....

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[bradp]

Half flaps for gusty conditions.  The plane lands fine half flaps or no flaps.  You’ll have a bit more rudder authority with a few  knots extra gust factor- just know you’re going to eat up a bit more runway.  The other benefit with half flaps is for a balked landing you’ll be ready for departure configuration without any need for changes.  

[DCarlton]

3 minutes ago, bradp said:

Half flaps for gusty conditions.  The plane lands fine half flaps or no flaps.  You’ll have a bit more rudder authority with a few  knots extra gust factor- just know you’re going to eat up a bit more runway.  The other benefit with half flaps is for a balked landing you’ll be ready for departure configuration without any need for changes.  

What you say is pretty much what seems to work for me.  I used more flaps today during very windy conditions and bounced; don't like bouncing and going around! 

[A64Pilot]

I see there is a lot of opinion that you need to be at half flap for a go-around.

You don’t, try it and see, if your worried, try it at altitude first, it files and climbs just fine with full flap. just a few knots slower is all.

‘If you have to go around, you have to go around NOW, there isn’t time to be changing anything, just time to firewall the throttle and start a climb.

I think this fear of going around with full flaps may be some of why it seems Mooney’s have so many prop strikes, they won’t just firewall it and pull back on the yoke at the first pogo.

‘If my little J can easily do it with only 200 HP. I’m sure the big motor guys can.

Edited May 25, 2021 by A64Pilot

[DCarlton]

19 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I see there is a lot of opinion that you need to be at half flap for a go-around.

You don’t, try it and see, if your worried, try it at altitude first, it files and climbs just fine with full flap. just a few knots slower is all.

‘If you have to go around, you have to go around NOW, there isn’t time to be changing anything, just time to firewall the throttle and start a climb.

I think this fear of going around with full flaps may be some of why it seems Mooney’s have so many prop strikes, they won’t just firewall it and pull back on the yoke at the first pogo.

‘If my little J can easily do it with only 200 HP. I’m sure the big motor guys can.

There's one issue with the F.  The flaps are hydraulic.  You can't let them up in increments.  When you move the valve to the up position, the entire flap setting dumps to 0 deg rather quickly.  I'd rather have them in the takeoff position if you think you may go missed.  Some times I'll go three pumps but rarely full flaps.  That' just me though; not saying it's right.  

Edited May 25, 2021 by DCarlton

[jlunseth]

Where I live it is windy and gusty pretty much all of the time, and when I go west from here into the Dakotas or further, every landing is a gusty, crosswind landing. The various models have different landing characteristics, I have a 231. That said, I find that if you come in for landing with the habit of full flaps and the wind steady, you are going to get sucker punched out here at some point, blown into the runway edge lights, or find yourself crosswise to the runway without the rudder authority to get straight, or balloon and then have to deal with either saving a crosswind landing at low speed or go around. All my landings are half flap landings and have been for several years. On some occasions, dealing with high, gusty, variable winds, I use no flaps. Half flaps and increased speed is in the POH for my aircraft. Sure, you can land in light winds on the nose with full flaps just fine. It is a bad idea to build that as your habit, though, when most of your landings need to be done faster and half flaps. Here is our METAR at my home airport today, there is a runway 18 but no one likes it much, short, the approach is over a lake (which sucks, literally), then trees (updraft), and ends at a cliff. All the jets and larger GA will be landing on 28L today. We also have lots of airports where you only have one runway choice, east-west. METAR: KFCM 251553Z 20014G20KT 10SM SCT021 24/19 A2974 RMK AO2 SLP063 T02440194 . Its a nice day here.

LANDING (CROSSWIND)

1.   Airspeed on Final - Above normal approach airspeed with Full Flaps (if crosswind component is above 12 KTS use 1/2 Flaps).

[A64Pilot]

29 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

There's one issue with the F.  The flaps are hydraulic.  You can't let them up in increments.  When you move the valve to the up position, the entire flap setting dumps to 0 deg rather quickly.  I'd rather have them in the takeoff position if you think you may go missed.  Some times I'll go three pumps but rarely full flaps.  That' just me though; not saying it's right.  

My Father had a C, the hydraulic flaps were good if you started to float, just flip the lever up and she would set down as the flaps came up. I don’t remember but think if you put the lever back down when they got half way up,  they would stay there, but that has been a long time ago and I don’t remember a time we ever wanted to raise them half way.

‘I liked the hydraulic flaps, because you didn’t have to take your eyes off of flying to see where the flaps were at, you learned this is a three  or four pump setting etc. Electric flaps I have to look at the indicator, Cessna flaps have stops so you don’t have to look there either.

‘Almost any Certified GA airplane will do anything with any flap setting, they are an aid is all, and there are times where book settings aren’t the best, for example if your on a short soft field full flaps may be better than 1/2 flap for takeoff.

‘So you say you’ll never be on a short soft field? Well never land grass to have it rain overnight, and if you don’t ever do grass, there are a whole lot of really neat places you’ll never go to then.

[N201MKTurbo]

56 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

There's one issue with the F.  The flaps are hydraulic.  You can't let them up in increments.  When you move the valve to the up position, the entire flap setting dumps to 0 deg rather quickly.  I'd rather have them in the takeoff position if you think you may go missed.  Some times I'll go three pumps but rarely full flaps.  That' just me though; not saying it's right.  

You need to adjust your flap pump to slow the retract time.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You need to adjust your flap pump to slow the retract time.

I lovely infinitely variable electric flaps! They move as long as I hold the switch over, until hitting the stops.

I fly approaches with Takeoff Flaps, as well as downwind and base leg when VFR. On Final, the flaps are simply another control, moved as needed to reach my desired touchdown point.

Yes, it's this way in my Owner's Manual, too.  

[A64Pilot]

The hydraulics were infinitely adjustable as well, and I think if for some reason you wanted to the Cessna electric ones are too, the mechanical of course you have to stop at a “click”.

‘The point though is that flaps are an aid, use them as needed, and in my opinion make a few no flap landings until your comfortable doing them, because if you fly enough the  day will come when they won’t work. No flap landings are really a non event once you get used to them, same for no flap takeoffs.

[bradp]

6 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I see there is a lot of opinion that you need to be at half flap for a go-around.

You don’t, try it and see, if your worried, try it at altitude first, it files and climbs just fine with full flap. just a few knots slower is all.

‘If you have to go around, you have to go around NOW, there isn’t time to be changing anything, just time to firewall the throttle and start a climb.

I think this fear of going around with full flaps may be some of why it seems Mooney’s have so many prop strikes, they won’t just firewall it and pull back on the yoke at the first pogo.

‘If my little J can easily do it with only 200 HP. I’m sure the big motor guys can.

I’ve had instances when I’m heavy on hot days and been full flaps on a go around.  In fact I had a never-again moment when I had a busted micro switch that jammed my flaps in the full position and found out about it when I needed to go around - and actually needed climb performance to avoid obstacles.  My J climbs like absolute $hit with full flaps.  
 

From then I made my “sop” half flaps until landing is “ assured” or half flaps in any marginal condition.  The plane simply performs better in climb with takeoff  flaps (kinda a no brainer).   

Half flaps does one more thing beside gives me a couple knots more airspeed and a little bit more rudder authority  - I’m more ready for a go around because I have to make zero config changes in flaps or trim to get my optimal climb performance and get out of there. 
 

I would also separate out the need for a “now” throttle action such as I’m on my second bounce and need to get out of here versus a contaminated runway; in the latter situation the best course of action is a smooth and slow application of throttle to arrest descent and start the climb out. 
 

 

[carusoam]

11 hours ago, DCarlton said:

There's one issue with the F.  The flaps are hydraulic.  You can't let them up in increments.  When you move the valve to the up position, the entire flap setting dumps to 0 deg rather quickly.  I'd rather have them in the takeoff position if you think you may go missed.  Some times I'll go three pumps but rarely full flaps.  That' just me though; not saying it's right.  

you may want to get with your mechanic at annual time....

The flap retract speed is fully adjustable,  and documented in the maintenance manual....

+1 on dumping flaps being incredibly dangerous.... at slow speeds... you can accidentally fall below stall speed by dumping the flaps...

They should be creeping in motion...

PP thoughts only, my M20C did this to me when we didn’t get the flap retract speed right on the ground... 

Best regards,

-a-

[DCarlton]

14 minutes ago, carusoam said:

you may want to get with your mechanic at annual time....

The flap retract speed is fully adjustable,  and documented in the maintenance manual....

+1 on dumping flaps being incredibly dangerous.... at slow speeds... you can accidentally fall below stall speed by dumping the flaps...

They should be creeping in motion...

PP thoughts only, my M20C did this to me when we didn’t get the flap retract speed right on the ground... 

Best regards,

-a-

I'll look in to it.  Thanks.  

[carusoam]

The flap control valve is under the belly panels...

It takes a fare amount of effort to remove and gain access...

 

When my M20C started to misbehave this way... I fixed it immediately...

Specifically because when flying an approach to landing we are going to be in the speed of falling out of the sky if the flaps move unexpectedly...

We lower the flaps to reduce the stall speed...

If the flaps retract while we are going slow already... the report won’t look so good...

If you don’t have to... don’t wait to get it adjusted properly...

PP thoughts only not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

[StevenL757]

On 5/24/2021 at 1:57 AM, DCarlton said:

I've flown a 67F for about 15 years; unfortunately operating from a coastal airport where the wind is typically steady right down the runway.  During gusty or very windy conditions, I seem to have better success landing with less flaps and a little more speed.  Typically nothing more than the takeoff flap setting.  Does anyone else adjust their flap settings during high wind conditions?  Thanks. 

Yes.  Although my speed brakes make landing in heavy winds easier, I do use less flap based on the specific wind conditions and length of the runway in order to control flare and ensure proper rollout.

[jlunseth]

The other issue with gusty crosswind landings is what is a “stabilized approach?” I was taught that was to make a throttle setting that creates your three degree descent profile at a given airspeed and leave the throttle there, that is stabilized. On the weather day I posted earlier in this thread we had two Urgent PIREPS in my immediate area, one for +7 airspeed and one for -10 airspeed, both on final by GA aircraft. We see that a lot where I live, gusty variable winds switching direction which changes the headwind component and therefore the airspeed dramatically and suddenly, and practically every approach in those conditions will see -10 kts. somewhere on final. To me, a stabilized approach is one where airspeed is managed to a number, in my aircraft I generally manage it to 85 on final and 75 over the fence. If the airspeed starts dropping suddenly on short final you can’t just let it drop, and if it spikes 10 kts. so your approach is now at 90–95, you can’t just let it do that either. The problem to really watch out for in those conditions is headwind drop on takeoff. When you are nose up and doing your takeoff climb, a -10 kt. airspeed loss is serious, you have to get the nose down before aerodynamics does it for you (I.e. you stall). These are not big deals, if you are ready for them you just take care of it, but like I said, if you get in the habit of landing with lots of flaps, steady wind down the runway, you will get sucker punched if you use those habits in other conditions.