LANCECASPER Posted October 17, 2022 Report Share Posted October 17, 2022 14 minutes ago, Gubni said: After waiting a year I finally got an IA to come and put my engine in. Everything firewall forward was sent off and IRAN or simply replaced. They are here until Saturday the 22cd to get it in annual and install the engine. The first problem we have ran into is the donuts for the gear are flat. We definitely need to replace the mains and might as well do the front also. Where can I get the parts? They mentioned a special tool that may be needed to install them also. You need 11 of these for the complete job, 4 on each main and 3 on the nose gear: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/lord-m20-mooney.php 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted October 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2022 17 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: You need 11 of these for the complete job, 4 on each main and 3 on the nose gear: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/lord-m20-mooney.php Thanks. Any idea on the special tool to install them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted October 17, 2022 Report Share Posted October 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Gubni said: Thanks. Any idea on the special tool to install them? You shouldn't need a tool for the mains Search is your friend: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted October 17, 2022 Report Share Posted October 17, 2022 6 hours ago, Gubni said: After waiting a year I finally got an IA to come and put my engine in Just read through all six pages of this topic. You get an A+ for perseverance. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 18, 2022 Report Share Posted October 18, 2022 Setting up the M20K engine is as complex as it gets… Make sure your mechanic has all the details and tools for the job… Having Continental experience is important… Somebody is hunting down continental experience in another thread currently… Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted October 19, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2022 (edited) We got the engine hung yesterday. Today is baffling. Today I am expecting the new shock discs and avionics to come in. I have a 121.5/406 ELT so ordered a new battery for it and registered it. I couldn't believe $310 for a small battery. Someone suggested 530W and 330ES. My IA said he would install avionics as long as we keep it simple. I think this is as simple as it gets since I already have a 530 and 330. Parts cost me $7000 with trade in. Along with everything firewall forward being new or IRAN I decided to put new tires and tubes in it for an extra layer of precaution. The ones on it now are at least 8 years old. Edited October 19, 2022 by Gubni 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted October 19, 2022 Report Share Posted October 19, 2022 4 hours ago, Gubni said: We got the engine hung yesterday. Today is baffling. Today I am expecting the new shock discs and avionics to come in. I have a 121.5/406 ELT so ordered a new battery for it and registered it. I couldn't believe $310 for a small battery. Someone suggested 530W and 330ES. My IA said he would install avionics as long as we keep it simple. I think this is as simple as it gets since I already have a 530 and 330. Parts cost me $7000 with trade in. Along with everything firewall forward being new or IRAN I decided to put new tires and tubes in it for an extra layer of precaution. They are at least 8 years old. This is fun to watch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted October 19, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2022 Today's big hurdle was the AD for the turbo clamp. The local airport is a Cessna service center so they have a big inventory of part. They didn't have one on the shelf in the size I needed. They pointed me to a junk area and said to look through there. I found a brand new one the same size and they said it's free! That saved $300. Of course it's not really free as I have to pay daily rental to work inside the hangar and they don't allow maintenance to be done anywhere except inside their maintenance hangar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 20, 2022 Report Share Posted October 20, 2022 9 hours ago, Gubni said: Today's big hurdle was the AD for the turbo clamp. The local airport is a Cessna service center so they have a big inventory of part. They didn't have one on the shelf in the size I needed. They pointed me to a junk area and said to look through there. I found a brand new one the same size and they said it's free! That saved $300. Of course it's not really free as I have to pay daily rental to work inside the hangar and they don't allow maintenance to be done anywhere except inside their maintenance hangar. Please be aware of issues regarding turbo clamps… There is a reason why brand new looking ones get tossed… There is maintenance procedures to be followed… for the safety of the pilot and friends… There is a limit to the number of times these clamps can be tightened… If you pick one up from a pile of parts… it has probably exceeded the number of re-torques it can have… The parts manufacturers know their limits…. Your mechanic should too… If you are not familiar with what happens when a turbo clamp starts to leak… we have an annual charity event in the Mooney world for a lost airman who’s Bravo lost a clamp during his transition training… the high pressure zone between the exhaust valve and the turbo, when it leaks, has the power of a cutting torch randomly heating things up under the cowl… not much warning to go with that… Know what you are getting… airworthiness and yellow tags go together… PP sunshine only, hopefully you know this already… if not, you do now… PP thoughts only, not a mechanic, I probably misunderstood what you meant… Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted October 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2022 5 hours ago, carusoam said: Please be aware of issues regarding turbo clamps… There is a reason why brand new looking ones get tossed… There is maintenance procedures to be followed… for the safety of the pilot and friends… There is a limit to the number of times these clamps can be tightened… If you pick one up from a pile of parts… it has probably exceeded the number of re-torques it can have… The parts manufacturers know their limits…. Your mechanic should too… If you are not familiar with what happens when a turbo clamp starts to leak… we have an annual charity event in the Mooney world for a lost airman who’s Bravo lost a clamp during his transition training… the high pressure zone between the exhaust valve and the turbo, when it leaks, has the power of a cutting torch randomly heating things up under the cowl… not much warning to go with that… Know what you are getting… airworthiness and yellow tags go together… PP sunshine only, hopefully you know this already… if not, you do now… PP thoughts only, not a mechanic, I probably misunderstood what you meant… Best regards, -a- Thank you. To clarify it was a new clamp that had never been used before. It was the spot weld type so my IA put it down for 500 hour change out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted October 20, 2022 Report Share Posted October 20, 2022 3 hours ago, Gubni said: Thank you. To clarify it was a new clamp that had never been used before. It was the spot weld type so my IA put it down for 500 hour change out. Check all of the info on these - that's the reason it was in the pile of scrap metal parts - you did not find anything worth having on your airplane in that pile. You only want the riveted type. The spot weld version is the one that caused some fires in early M20M's and led to occupants in the cabin dying. This also happened on Piper Mirages and Turbo Saratogas. Having owned six Turbo Mooneys and one Mirage over the years I am very well aware of this issue. Those deaths led to service bulletins about using it for just 2 re-torques. Then since the new design came out (Riveted vs. spot weld) it was mandated that those clamps be changed over to the new design. No one puts a spot-welded clamp on anymore - that's why it was in the scrap metal pile and should have been disposed of so that someone didn't see it as new and use it. (If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.) I know you're anxious to get your airplane in the air, it's been a long year+, but if there's one thing that will kill you on a turbo-charged airplane it's 1650 degree exhaust gases cutting through your firewall like a blow torch when the defective V-clamp fails. Get the correct clamp and get it safety-wired correctly on there. In the abundance of caution even the riveted ones are still limited to two re-torques. If your IA is not aware of this and thinks it's safe for 500 hours - he is not up to speed on this issue. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted October 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2022 56 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: Check all of the info on these - that's the reason it was in the pile of srap metal parts - you did not find anything worth having on your airplane in that pile. You only want the riveted type. The spot weld version is the one that caused some fires in early M20M's and led to occupants in the cabin dying. This also happened on Piper Mirages and Saratogas. Having owned six Turbo Mooneys and one Mirage over the years I am very well aware of this issue. Those deaths led to service bulletins about using it for just 2 re-torques. Then since the new design came out (Riveted vs. spot weld) it was mandated that those clamps be changed over to the new design. No one puts a spot-welded clamp on any more - that's why it was in the scrap metal pile and should have been disposed of so that someone didn't see it as new and use it. (If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.) I know you're anxious to get your airplane in the air, it's been a long year+, but if there's one thing that will kill you on a turbo-charged airplane it's 1650 degree exhaust gases cutting through your firewall like a blow torch when the defective V-clamp fails. Get the correct clamp and get it safety-wired correctly on there. In the abundance of caution even the riveted ones are still limited to two re-torques. If your IA is not aware of this and thinks it's safe for 500 hours - he is not up to speed on this issue. Thank you. He is aware of the AD and brought it to my attention. The one that was on there is estimated to be from 1991 and about 1500 hours with one retorque. While it appeared to be in good condition due to the AD he said we must replace it. He said the AD says welded ones are good up to 500 hours with annual inspection. This is a new one in a box of other new ones. The area they were in was special orders paid for others and not used. The junk area is non inventoried parts. From the dust it had been there at least a few years. Maybe someone ordered the wrong part? I didn't question why it was there and I didn't question the competence of my IA. I did google it some before typing this reply. From what I found with my limited abilities this is correct about the 500 hour life span. I also went to FAA.gov and looked it up and was not able to find an AD about the V band clamp on a M20K specifically although I realize it is relative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted October 20, 2022 Report Share Posted October 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Gubni said: I also went to FAA.gov and looked it up and was not able to find an AD about the V band clamp on a M20K specifically although I realize it is relative. Not an AD, but a good read: https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/small_airplanes/maintaining_exhaust_system_best_practices.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted October 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2022 Turns out the clamp I found was not 100% compatible. The correct part number is 653337 and when I searched it on controller I found it at RAM Aircraft. They have a FAA PMA and their part is 2157-344 for $250 and they have plenty in stock. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted October 20, 2022 Report Share Posted October 20, 2022 Check all of the info on these - that's the reason it was in the pile of scrap metal parts - you did not find anything worth having on your airplane in that pile. You only want the riveted type. The spot weld version is the one that caused some fires in early M20M's and led to occupants in the cabin dying. This also happened on Piper Mirages and Turbo Saratogas. Having owned six Turbo Mooneys and one Mirage over the years I am very well aware of this issue. Those deaths led to service bulletins about using it for just 2 re-torques. Then since the new design came out (Riveted vs. spot weld) it was mandated that those clamps be changed over to the new design. No one puts a spot-welded clamp on anymore - that's why it was in the scrap metal pile and should have been disposed of so that someone didn't see it as new and use it. (If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.) I know you're anxious to get your airplane in the air, it's been a long year+, but if there's one thing that will kill you on a turbo-charged airplane it's 1650 degree exhaust gases cutting through your firewall like a blow torch when the defective V-clamp fails. Get the correct clamp and get it safety-wired correctly on there. In the abundance of caution even the riveted ones are still limited to two re-torques. If your IA is not aware of this and thinks it's safe for 500 hours - he is not up to speed on this issue. Not true Lance regarding riveted vs spot welded. We use what ever part # is approved in the IPC and although some engines use a riveted clamp like your Bravo many engines use the spot welded variety such as the K’s and I am doubtful we’ll see TCM provide a riveted version for those that just use spot welded ones any time soon - even when the NPRM becomes an AD. It’s not an AD yet as far as I know. I am sure it will be though but i hope it gets a bit liberal - all the failures where with highly corroded clamps that looked like they were in service for decades. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted October 20, 2022 Report Share Posted October 20, 2022 20 minutes ago, kortopates said: Not true Lance regarding riveted vs spot welded. We use what ever part # is approved in the IPC and although some engines use a riveted clamp like your Bravo many engines use the spot welded variety such as the K’s and I am doubtful we’ll see TCM provide a riveted version for those that just use spot welded ones any time soon - even when the NPRM becomes an AD. It’s not an AD yet as far as I know. I am sure it will be though but i hope it gets a bit liberal - all the failures where with highly corroded clamps that looked like they were in service for decades. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Ok thanks - I stand corrected. I am much more familiar with the Lycoming versions and am getting gradually more familiar with the Continental differences, now that it's getting close to a year since I sold the Bravo and got the Acclaim. On every oil change I need to take a look at those clamps on each of the two turbos since I now have two exhaust pipes that can kill me. . lol. (Actually I like having the exhaust only from 3 cylinders coming out each tail pipe rather than 6 cylinders coming out one tail pipe. Seems like a better design.) The link that @Fly Boomer provided was interesting about the cracks around the spotwelds. I always thought it was the weld that gave way - turns out the weld is strong, but it's the metal around it that is damaged by the weld and then over time gives way. I will expand my look beyond the weld to look for cracks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted October 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2022 We are continuing to make progress. We hope to finish the basic engine install today. Tomorrow we will work on shock discs, tires, gear swing, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted October 23, 2022 Report Share Posted October 23, 2022 You're doing a great job on this airplane. Even though I'm sure it's been frustrating with how long it's taken, you'll have something to be proud of when it's done. One suggestion, sooner than later, is new baffle seals. The older factory ones from that era get "lazy" and flop back under air pressure and let the air out the back of the cowl, instead of forcing it down the cooling fins of the cylinders. Here's a site with a similar restoration and this section talks about @GeeGeeBee baffle seals (Guy Ginbey). https://n252q.com/baffled-about-baffling/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted October 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 minute ago, LANCECASPER said: You're doing a great job on this airplane. Even though I'm sure it's been frustrating with how long it's taken, you'll have something to be proud of when it's done. One suggestion, sooner than later, is new baffle seals. The older factory ones from that era get "lazy" and flop back under air pressure and let the air out the back of the cowl, instead of forcing it down the cooling fins of the cylinders. Here's a site with a similar restoration and this section talks about @GeeGeeBee baffle seals (Guy Ginbey). https://n252q.com/baffled-about-baffling/ I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted October 23, 2022 Report Share Posted October 23, 2022 16 minutes ago, Gubni said: I agree. Great. Before you put all of the work into the roll material I would still talk to Guy Ginbey though. His are pre-cut and save many, many hours on the installation side. Plus the material is much better, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpcc Posted October 23, 2022 Report Share Posted October 23, 2022 Great to see the progress you are making. Do you have an idea where you will finish up cost wise now that you are close to being back together? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted October 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, rpcc said: Great to see the progress you are making. Do you have an idea where you will finish up cost wise now that you are close to being back together? I gave up on detailed costs, but I'd say around $100k so still well under value. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted October 24, 2022 Report Share Posted October 24, 2022 20 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: One suggestion, sooner than later, is new baffle seals. The older factory ones from that era get "lazy" and flop back under air pressure and let the air out the back of the cowl, instead of forcing it down the cooling fins of the cylinders. Here's a site with a similar restoration and this section talks about @GeeGeeBee baffle seals (Guy Ginbey). Did his handle change recently? I don't recall seeing "GeeGeeBee" before. Might just be a feeble brain on my end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schllc Posted October 24, 2022 Report Share Posted October 24, 2022 32 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: Did his handle change recently? I don't recall seeing "GeeGeeBee" before. Might just be a feeble brain on my end. Not sure about his handle changing. I emailed him about a door seal and he said he deleted his account on Mooneyspace and would not be returning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Ellis Posted October 24, 2022 Report Share Posted October 24, 2022 14 minutes ago, Schllc said: Not sure about his handle changing. I emailed him about a door seal and he said he deleted his account on Mooneyspace and would not be returning. I have always been curious about this statement on the webstore for GeeBee Aeroproducts. Showing my ignorance, is this a big deal for baffling, hoses, door seals etc... (all the stuff he sells)? *Products in the GeeBee Store are not currently FAA/PMA approved, so consult your A&P/IA for guidance regarding installation and use on certified aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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