Parker_Woodruff Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 On 5/25/2021 at 5:59 AM, Gubni said: He told me that it was not required on a continental to do a tear down inspection. You said it was highly recommended but not required and if it was his he would not. He said on a lycoming engine there is an AD that requires it, but not the continental. Every insurance company will pay for a teardown on a Continental. They think it's necessary/prudent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwaters Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 58 minutes ago, Gubni said: I learned yesterday that it's possible in general aviation to fly to Australia from USA. I have a new bucket list item and this is the plane to do that. The speed and efficiency would really help even with the low payload. I might just have to buy and donate clothes along the route. That of course is a year or two in the future, so I will deal with it then. This plane has been to Europe several times and some annuals were done in Europe also. What's the preferred route to Aus from the US? I imagine no matter what you end up going through Indonesia but do you go east over the Atlantic or west over the pacific, And really the question is if you go through Russia or the UK right? Or do I have my geography wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted May 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 3 hours ago, cwaters said: What's the preferred route to Aus from the US? I imagine no matter what you end up going through Indonesia but do you go east over the Atlantic or west over the pacific, And really the question is if you go through Russia or the UK right? Or do I have my geography wrong? Hawaii, Marshall Islands, New Guinea, Australia Belos is a video of a guy that did it in a M20J 201. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZuluZulu Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 6 hours ago, Gubni said: Somehow my update from last night is not showing, so here it is again. Yesterday I worked on this some more. It was not firing on cylinders 1 & 3. We swapped spark plugs side to side and still had the same problem with 1 & 3. We also tested the spark plugs and saw them fire. We cracked the fuel lines at the injectors (when the engine was cold) and had fuel. I suspected it was valves. Last night I checked the last annual compressions and found cylinder 1 & 3 were both 61 and the other cylinders were 67-71. We boroscoped it, but didn't see anything special. I spoke with Don Maxwell. He did not have a strong opinion one way or another regarding a rebuild. He said it would probably be fine for 5 hours no matter what. The one thing he really pushed for was a fuel system overhaul. I told him I had slick mags and he went over several reasons to change them. He recommended Jewell for a rebuild if I decided to go that way. The turbo is producing oil and there are a few other oil leaks. I hate oil leaks. We pulled the prop and attempted to mic the crank, but we were not able to find a good surface for the mag mount and we were running out of time. I feel now that I have done a fair amount of studying and here is what I have found. It is high (TBO 1500 of 1800), it had a very minor prop strike, it has sat for 7 years, and it has problems with two cylinders. I needs new mags, and a turbo rebuild. I'm sure other seals are leaking or going to leak soon. I am going to go ahead and send the prop off for rebuild and I believe I will send the entire firewall forward off to be rebuilt. An experienced pilot might be able to handle an engine failure better than a new pilot so that is a factor for me also. I learned yesterday that it's possible in general aviation to fly to Australia from USA. I have a new bucket list item and this is the plane to do that. The speed and efficiency would really help even with the low payload. I might just have to buy and donate clothes along the route. That of course is a year or two in the future, so I will deal with it then. This plane has been to Europe several times and some annuals were done in Europe also. Any concern that all these test runs and troubleshooting attempts on an engine clearly not running correctly may be causing additional damage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 13 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said: Any concern that all these test runs and troubleshooting attempts on an engine clearly not running correctly may be causing additional damage? I’m a little more concerned about the troubleshooting ability of his mechanic… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 31 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said: Any concern that all these test runs and troubleshooting attempts on an engine clearly not running correctly may be causing additional damage? Without an ECU that gives fault codes or other diagnostic information, how else do you test it? Old technology sometimes requires old methodology. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urs_Wildermuth Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 I am starting to wonder here if this whole thing is genuine. I don't know Mike Bush other than by reputation, but I know Don. And the kind of troubleshooting the OP describes, would any mechanic really do this? Run an obviously propstriked engine after 7 years of not running just like that? Nobody I know would. Does this story simply pull all the strings to get us excited? Maybe a bit too much hook line and sinker? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 12 hours ago, Gubni said: it had a "very minor prop strike" That's very similar to "just slightly pregnant". I'm glad you're leaning toward rebuilding the engine. The reason that cautious people do teardown inspections (and insurance companies willingly pay for these) even on a "very minor prop strike" is that you just can't tell what you'll find until you open it up. The risks we take in a single engine airplane: flying over mountainous terrain, flying over water, flying at night, low IMC, all lessen the chances of survival when something mechanically goes wrong. Asking others more experienced before making an important decision is a good thing - good job!! The decision making part of the brain that causes young males to feel invincible doesn't fully develop until somewhere around 25, and sometimes never develops : ). Ever wonder why car insurance rates go down at 25? Anything you can do to make the airplane more safe and the pilot more safe (training, mindset) helps. You just do not want a crankshaft to come apart at high rpm, especially over the Pacific Ocean on the way to Australia : ) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 26, 2021 Report Share Posted May 26, 2021 Maybe I mis read things here or there are missing details by owners, but many of the things I read here that owners and mechanics do to engines make me shake my head. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted May 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2021 3 hours ago, Urs_Wildermuth said: I am starting to wonder here if this whole thing is genuine. I don't know Mike Bush other than by reputation, but I know Don. And the kind of troubleshooting the OP describes, would any mechanic really do this? Run an obviously propstriked engine after 7 years of not running just like that? Nobody I know would. Does this story simply pull all the strings to get us excited? Maybe a bit too much hook line and sinker? Please call Don and ask him. It was Tuesday mid day when I spoke to him. I'm sure he will remember the conversation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted May 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2021 I am not concerned about causing additional damage. I am no means an A&P, but on the other hand I do have a garage with a lift and have experience in general mechanics. Regarding diagnosis, I summarized 5 hours into a 2 minute read, so many details were left out. I'll keep you guys updated, but please try not to question my integrity. Feel free to question my decisions as I am asking for your wisdom though. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 27, 2021 Report Share Posted May 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Gubni said: I am not concerned about causing additional damage. I am no means an A&P, but on the other hand I do have a garage with a lift and have experience in general mechanics. Regarding diagnosis, I summarized 5 hours into a 2 minute read, so many details were left out. I'll keep you guys updated, but please try not to question my integrity. Feel free to question my decisions as I am asking for your wisdom though. Gubni, Keep going forward with your posts... You are going to misunderstand some... And some are going to misunderstand yours... Writing is not exactly everyone’s preferred method of communication... but it is what we have... Nobody is going to question your integrity... because you are responsible for your self... If this were a commercial enterprise that was going to affect other people... You would be receiving much stronger advice... You are not the only person with a garage and a lift... the same advice goes out to businessmen that own a company with several garages, each with multiple lifts each... I really like DMax and his advice... He is one of the top Mooney mechanics on the planet... I sent my Ovation to see him prior to the actual purchase... he flew the plane, then did the PPI... we spent some quality time on the phone afterwards... I wrote pages of notes... That discussion was worth a couple of thousand... all paid for with the PPI... Please maintain the respect of other people... if you got free advice from DMax... great. I hope you took good notes... and sent a thank you card... If you think DMax is going to take phone calls from somebody else to ask about your plane... what would be the point? How much free time does a man have? Experience counts... You can learn a lot from others... Maybe you have a ton of experience in some other field... there will always be an opportunity to share that with others... Keep learning... Start with reading up on compression readings... how they work, what they are good for, why people use them... and why using them on a Continental engine doesn’t work nearly as well... what you want to do to get them to work... I’m surprised you haven’t shared pics from inside the cylinders yet... there is a low cost way to do that... and you can get a good look at the valves at the same time... TC’d engines with high time, May need some valve help. Pics will tell the story... looking for a nice pizza look... if the cylinder walls are all shiny and new with nice cross hatchings on the surface... that would be fantastic... If they are shiny and new and extra smooth... that would mean they are terribly worn... Of they are clean, but pitted, somebody probably ran the engine that had rusty cylinder surfaces... they cleaned up, but the pits are left behind... oil use, and compression may be affected by the severity of the pits... We are all friends around here... we don’t have a choice... we all play for the same team... even when it doesn’t look that way... +1 on ground strikes... Definitions have changed to include running props through tall grass and deep water... which leave little indications behind... If a blade has scrapes and has been bent... you have the bad news already... what you do with that news is up to you... If you are working with a mechanic, the AI and A&P kind.... they are usually very good with reading and determining next steps for the plane... basic FAA laws that mechanics are familiar with... Now for the good part... Any new parts you hang on this motor will get you going the right direction sort of... Mags can be re-used, starter and alternator can also be re-used... an OH’d fuel system can be re-used... to hang on the next motor... Doing it this way includes a lot of mechanic work that you won’t be getting back... pay to hang new mags on this engine... you will take them off and hang them on the OH’d engine... Keep an eye on your finances... people won’t be out to take your money... you will be fighting yourself from asking for too many things to get done... Engines that have sat for years are known for having spalling on the surfaces of the cam followers... this disaster has ruined a few cams over the years... Sending metal bits starts out small... but they get sent into expensive places... if not caught soon enough... they can ruin an expensive crank... We have an IO550 around here where the situation occurred in less than a pandemic year... but was caught after an early oil change... a few followers were affected and needed replacement... If running an engine sounds like a good idea... add oil change and filter cutting for inspection to the early part of the runs... if followers are falling apart... they have a lunar cratered look to them... Fortunately, Continental engines are much easier to handle this type of challenge... You hadn’t mentioned the type of business, or the kind of work you are doing... a hint of how much financial flexibility you do or don’t have... Flying is expensive... I couldn’t afford an OH of an M20C when I first started to fly one... I needed to get lucky, and stay lucky... for at least a year... A top end OH and new prop for an Ovation’ Continetal was about 70amu... Adding a turbo into the mix will probably cost 10amu more with the exhaust parts... As a guy with a garage and a lift... you probably want to put your eyes on the crank, the lifters and the cam... There are actual procedures to follow for this, including dye penetrant and specialists that do the work... Know that some risks aren’t worth taking... paying extra hurts... the alternative can be much worse... Stay on target! Now that your one of my Mooney friends... I can’t afford to lose you. PP thoughts only, I have a two car garage, a hangar, but no lift (yet)... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted May 27, 2021 Report Share Posted May 27, 2021 5 hours ago, M20Doc said: Maybe I mis read things here or there are missing details by owners, but many of the things I read here that owners and mechanics do to engines make me shake my head. Clarence Just the engines?... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urs_Wildermuth Posted May 27, 2021 Report Share Posted May 27, 2021 7 hours ago, M20Doc said: Maybe I mis read things here or there are missing details by owners, but many of the things I read here that owners and mechanics do to engines make me shake my head. That makes two of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 27, 2021 Report Share Posted May 27, 2021 4 hours ago, Urs_Wildermuth said: That makes a bunch of us. FTFY . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZuluZulu Posted May 27, 2021 Report Share Posted May 27, 2021 21 hours ago, EricJ said: Without an ECU that gives fault codes or other diagnostic information, how else do you test it? Old technology sometimes requires old methodology. I'm not a mechanic, but it sounded like there was already enough known to skip any more attempted engine runs and proceed straight to some pretty significant remedial steps. BWDIK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted May 28, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2021 I have officially decided for a rebuild. The next step is to decide on how to do that. Do I send everything firewall forward or only send the main engine and fuel system. I spoke to Jewell and Western Skyways and both were okay with me sending it all, but neither wanted me to send it all. Western Skyways was super friendly and Jewell seemed to be having a bad day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted May 28, 2021 Report Share Posted May 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Gubni said: I have officially decided for a rebuild. The next step is to decide on how to do that. Do I send everything firewall forward or only send the main engine and fuel system. I spoke to Jewell and Western Skyways and both were okay with me sending it all, but neither wanted me to send it all. Western Skyways was super friendly and Jewell seemed to be having a bad day. It seems much more typical to just send the engine to an engine rebuilder. I think these guys have done it the way you're asking about:https://firewallforwardengines.com/ A friend did a project rebuilding a Duke, and they did it that way, just sending everything from both sides as assemblies, and got overhauled assemblies back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 28, 2021 Report Share Posted May 28, 2021 Are any of those guys close enough for you to visit? Nothing more educational than to see it first hand... For comparison purposes... Continental was pretty good at offering quotes for new, OH’d, and factory reman... with all of the details... What you get with each... and a price... and time that it takes... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted May 28, 2021 Report Share Posted May 28, 2021 I have officially decided for a rebuild. The next step is to decide on how to do that. Do I send everything firewall forward or only send the main engine and fuel system. I spoke to Jewell and Western Skyways and both were okay with me sending it all, but neither wanted me to send it all. Western Skyways was super friendly and Jewell seemed to be having a bad day. IIRC, we pulled the alternator, starter, all engine monitor stuff, muffler and air intake assembly...the rest sent to engine shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 28, 2021 Report Share Posted May 28, 2021 On 5/27/2021 at 10:24 PM, Gubni said: I have officially decided for a rebuild. The next step is to decide on how to do that. Do I send everything firewall forward or only send the main engine and fuel system. I spoke to Jewell and Western Skyways and both were okay with me sending it all, but neither wanted me to send it all. Western Skyways was super friendly and Jewell seemed to be having a bad day. A good overhaul should be the engine with its fuel system, ignition system, starter, turbocharger, turbo controller, wastegate. Alternators are usually considered an airframe system, but because of its critical nature on this engine you should be doing it and it’s drive coupling. Other things to consider are the engine mount structure, engine mounts, hoses, new baffle sealing tapes fluid hoses. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urs_Wildermuth Posted May 28, 2021 Report Share Posted May 28, 2021 11 hours ago, Gubni said: I have officially decided for a rebuild. Very good decision. 11 hours ago, Gubni said: I spoke to Jewell and Western Skyways and both were okay with me sending it all, but neither wanted me to send it all. Western Skyways was super friendly and Jewell seemed to be having a bad day. In your case, sending all is probably a valid thing to do. That way they can check everything out and decide what to replace and what not. Clarance (M20Doc) has said it correctly, all the items he has mentioned should in any case go with the engine. I would suggest the mags as well, at the very least they need to be checked. Engine mount: Absolutely needs to be checked after the long down time and the possible prop strike. Also a possibly factory remanufactured or overhauled engine may well be a very valid idea, but then all the accessories need to be checked as well before they go on a "new" engine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerostarDriver Posted May 29, 2021 Report Share Posted May 29, 2021 On 5/27/2021 at 10:24 PM, Gubni said: I have officially decided for a rebuild. The next step is to decide on how to do that. Do I send everything firewall forward or only send the main engine and fuel system. I spoke to Jewell and Western Skyways and both were okay with me sending it all, but neither wanted me to send it all. Western Skyways was super friendly and Jewell seemed to be having a bad day. I would consider penn yan as they may be closer. In full disclosure, my experience with them has only been with lycomings. Continental TSIO-360-MB Engine Options for Mooney M20K-252 (pennyanaero.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted May 29, 2021 Report Share Posted May 29, 2021 Paul has basically your same engine, he used Jewell. @gsxrpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 29, 2021 Report Share Posted May 29, 2021 I’d be curious to know how Jewel’s pricing works out for a complete engine overhaul. Their on line price list doesn’t include accessories. Do they use new cylinders or overhaul your old ones? Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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