Gubni Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 I am a student pilot and should be getting my PPL next month. I wanted to buy an airplane for long range flying. It was very easy for me to determine the best choice is a Mooney. The minimum I wanted was a C, but really wanted at least an E if possible. I started asking around and looking to see what is available. I found a J model, but it was beyond economical restoration IMO. I had asked for a tour of the facilities at a local class D airport and was amazed to see a beautiful Mooney with a thick layer of dust in the corner of the main hangar. I was told it hadn't moved in at least 5 years. I took a quick picture of the tail number and kept walking. My business is selling brake parts and real estate investing. I often find abandoned properties and hunt down the owners and restore the property. My father was a mechanic and I have a garage with a lift, so I have a good background to work with even though I know I can't do much if any work myself. At least I know what's going on and can talk to an A&P with some background of what is going on. It was a process to track down the owner because he lives in Sweden. I found an email and sent him an email with no reply. Finally after many dead ends I got a phone number and he answered. I was able to convince him to sell it to me for $10,000 AS-IS and I bought it 5-19-21. It is a 1980 M20K 231 and in 1991 it had a firewall forward 252 conversion done, speed brakes, long range tanks, and painted with the new tail number. This was done by modworks and it is now called a Trophy 261. In 2007 is had a $50,000 avionics upgrade with dual garmin 530s and several other things. The reason it had been sitting was it had a low speed prop strike in 2014 and it has almost 1500 hours on the TSIO=360-MB4B engine. The owner had gotten a $100,000 estimate for repair for new prop, new engine, etc. When I asked around I was told the A&P at this airport is known to be very expensive, but also very thorough. I was also told on a continental engine a tear down inspection is highly recommended, but not required. I found another IA that said since only one blade has a bend and it's only maybe 1/2" bend inwards that there was probably no engine damage. He told me we can pull the prop and mic the crank and odds are greatly in my favor that it will be okay. He said assuming there are no major problems he can put it in annual for $8000.00 plus the prop cost. He will also allow owner assisted work where I can work under his supervision. The previous owner said he didn't even know there was a problem until the hangar guys told him about it. Either way I plan to replace the engine soon because of the hours and time it has been sitting. A few weeks ago I asked where to get a prop and several people recommended Cody Stallings. I called him and he has a pair of used blades and can probably take mine in trade. I am expecting this to cost $3000-$4000 with a hub rebuild. The owner sent me the logs from 1991+ but he doesn't think he has the logs from prior to the conversion. It had 1200 hours at the time of the conversion and now has about 2700 hours. The owners manual is not in the plane. The previous owner has it and said he will scan a copy and email it to me tomorrow and later get me the original. I am not going to fly it until I finish my PPL, but it probably won't be ready before then anyway. I will then get 10 hours in it with a CFI and start my IFR training. Actually I bet I can just do 10 hours of IFR training with a CFI in it to meet the 10 hours in type requirement for insurance. I don't want to hesitate on my learning. I don't ever plan to fly commercial, but I might get commercial and CFI ratings because I like to learn and the more you know the better, right? My first modification is the mircokit landing height system. Next I need to get it ADS-B compliant and really I have no idea about that. I found a company that can still do a WAAS update for me Garmin 530 from some old stock for $5000, but my friend Mack who is an A&P suggested to swap out for Avidyne which is $13,000 to $14,000. I want to have the plane IFR rated and I want to be able to go to class B airports if needed. Any advise is appreciated. I really want to do the minimum to get it ready for now and then learn what I really need and handle that later. See attached pictures. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 There's no such thing as a free piano, but that's a heck of a nice doorstop for $10k. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 This will probably be another addition to Paul's list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 c'mon guys, have a heart! @Gubni, best of luck to you! Personally, I wouldn't replace or change anything until after the plane is flying. Then fly it for a year, see how you use it and what you want. THEN start updates. Check back, I'd love to see this plane in the air again! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 Perfect.... Just realize how big the project is.... It is one part... getting a plane running that seems to have a sudden engine stoppage in its recent history... Look up ground strikes to see what is required... by Continental. It is another part... getting the new owner up to speed with one of the most powerful X-Country machines in existence... A third part is getting transition training for this awesome bird to be.... it isn’t a simple couple of hours, sign your log book, go fly... Don’t confuse tough advice for nay-sayers.... There will be a lot of people looking out for you. It just won’t always sound very friendly... You can do a lot of work yourself... Start with finding a good mechanic that will oversee what you are doing... Relationships are everything... Expect to find that a ground strike probably needs a proper engine tear down and inspection of certain parts... When done correctly... this will make an awesome success story... It is too easy to make mistakes... So always keep that in mind... I’ve never had a free piano... But like a plane... costs start building by having a place to keep it... +1 for Cody and his prop advice... @Cody Stallings There are many examples around here of new pilots getting too much plane.... or not enough experience.... unfortunately, you can’t buy the experience... you can acquire it pretty quickly though.... each season brings new challenges.... Keep training! Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 Not getting a iran (better yet an overhaul) for a 30 year old engine that’s been left to sit after a prop strike is a very poor decision. Fix it right and stop worrying about upgrades right now. He basically gave you the airplane, now give it some proper love and make it great again! Dont worry about the instrument rating. Get some proper training on how to fly the aircraft. The last thing we need is another cheaply purchased aircraft getting a(nother) prop strike right off the bat. Good luck, it looks like you found a good deal. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 Of course, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is insurance, if it's even available until you have your private and some hours under your belt. @Parker_Woodruff (I've done a similar restoration to what you are about to do: If you want Avidyne you should be able to easily find a used IFD540 for $10,000 and then sell the non-waas 530 for at least $2500. Either way to go to WAAS, you'll need new antenna cable and a new waas antenna. (I didn't have the luxury of the 530 already being in the airplane, but I still decided on an Avidyne for a new install.) Then if all you are interested in is ADS-B out, use the WAAS GPS you decide on as the position source and take your GTX330 transponder and have it converted to or swap it for a GTX330ES (Extended Squitter for ADS-B out). (My choice would be do it once, do it right and install a Garmin GTX-345 for both in and out.) (The previous owner didn't skimp on the avionics upgrade in '07. To put two Garmin 530's in a K model wasn't very common in 2007, one maybe, but more often one Garmin 430. It also looks like it has a GDL69 XM receiver for music and weather. A Sandel HSI was expensive back then. A GTX330 instead of a 327 gave him TIS-A traffic, where available. At some point he took out a Century 41 (most likely) or KFC200 autopilot and put in an STec 55X. All of this just to say that at one time this was a well cared for airplane, well worth putting some money into. It would be interesting to look over the logs that are available.) The -MB4B engine has two alternators which is excellent for IFR. (Just remember everyone thinks it's a 252 which is 28v, but this is a converted 231 which is a 14v airplane when you are dealing with anything electrical . . voltage regulator, starter, alternators, avionics, etc, etc, etc.) Since you got it so reasonably, if it's financially possible, I would buy a Continental Rebuilt, about $55000 plus installation, hoses, etc and an overhauled prop. This airframe is nice enough that you will have an amazing airplane still for 50-60% of what it's worth. Even if you need to borrow the money, if you do it once you have an engine with a warranty and you aren't as likely to have huge unknown expenses any given month. Best case scenario these were 1800 hour engines. This one is at 1500 and hasn't flown for years. If you major it now or exchange it with reman you'll never regret it. You'll spend time flying it and getting used to it and not wishing you were flying it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 I think your plan sounds good. With a new prop and a mic/runout check on the crank, I'd fly it and just keep a close eye on the engine, oil analysis, etc. This assumes a thorough annual/checkout prior to that. +1 on swapping one of the 530s out for an Avidyne IFD540. Looks like a good find and opportunity to me. Best of luck with it! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67 m20F chump Posted May 21, 2021 Report Share Posted May 21, 2021 That is the best deal I have ever heard of. Good for you. Whenever I find a plane that has been sitting forever the owner prices it as if it was in mint condition. Spend the money on an overhaul if you can. Your plane is a keeper. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubni Posted May 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 I want to thank everyone for the comments. I can assure you I will do whatever it takes to get this plane in the air and it won't be scrapped or sold. I'm one of the most persistent people I've ever met, lol Someone mentioned a sudden stop on the engine. That was not the case at all. The pilot had no clue there was any damage to the prop. It definitely was not a sudden stop. I really appreciate all the advice. As you might imagine I don't understand all of it but that just means more to learn. I have the money to put a new engine in it but I really want to get it in annual and work out any small bugs there may be to make sure everything else is good. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Bird Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 One of the cleanest Sandel units I've seen in a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZuluZulu Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 8 hours ago, Gubni said: My first modification is the mircokit landing height system. Next I need to get it ADS-B compliant and really I have no idea about that. I found a company that can still do a WAAS update for me Garmin 530 from some old stock for $5000, but my friend Mack who is an A&P suggested to swap out for Avidyne which is $13,000 to $14,000. I want to have the plane IFR rated and I want to be able to go to class B airports if needed. Any advise is appreciated. I really want to do the minimum to get it ready for now and then learn what I really need and handle that later. See attached pictures. It's your money but personally I would work on addressing the engine situation and getting the plane airworthy again before I even dreamed of stuffing more avionics into it. It's been yours for two days. You don't even know everything that's wrong with it yet. Good luck! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Gubni said: I want to thank everyone for the comments. I can assure you I will do whatever it takes to get this plane in the air and it won't be scrapped or sold. I'm one of the most persistent people I've ever met, lol Someone mentioned a sudden stop on the engine. That was not the case at all. The pilot had no clue there was any damage to the prop. It definitely was not a sudden stop. I really appreciate all the advice. As you might imagine I don't understand all of it but that just means more to learn. I have the money to put a new engine in it but I really want to get it in annual and work out any small bugs there may be to make sure everything else is good. That was me.... The important part of what I mentioned is... When the prop makes contact with something... It is often called a ground strike.... The engine manufacturer has all the definitions and procedures to follow... I used the phrase sudden stop... which probably doesn’t apply so much... Check what your engine manufacturer has for these definitions... They have probably been updated this century.... When a plane is making full power.... during the prop strike... the internal engine parts don’t usually fare so well... When a plane has a gear up landing with the prop windmilling... the damage can be very limited or nothing at all... The old rules were to use a dial indicator on the front of the crank shaft... looking for indications of a bent shaft... Unfortunately, the dial indicator doesn’t always find the killer cracks that have formed in the internal parts... So... everything can look good from the outside... but having the prop fall off in flight is generally bad.... The cost for internal inspection... goes a long ways towards getting an engine OH’d... the R&R is the same.... You must have really relieved an unfinished pain that the previous owner has had for quite some time... Be on the look out for all the docs and tools that can go with the plane... POHs... maintenance manuals... Logs.... STCs... tow bar... fuel cup. A 231 converted to a 252 that retains the 14V electrical system... is often called a 262.... by the guy that wrote the STC... (Coy Jacobs) There are a few 262s around here... unfortunately, Coy is not. For a timeline on how long this project can take... OHing the engine is probably the limiting step... If swapping blades doesn’t work, and a new prop is required/desired... that can take a few months to be built... Either way... Keep training, and gathering experience... What else do you have going on in your life? Wife, kids, job, company to run..? For pre-flown avionics... check in with Alan... he always has a bunch of stuff that goes well in many planes around here... if looking for something specific... Alan is on the road looking for these things all the time.... Get familiar with the WAAS and ADSB out that you want or need... See if you can ride right seat with somebody on an IFR flight... a great way to experience the next level of aviation... or even a VFR flight in a Mooney... PP thoughts only, not a CFI or mechanic... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 10 hours ago, Gubni said: I need to get it ADS-B compliant and really I have no idea about that. You could probably screw on a uAvionix unit without making any other changes. I have no personal experience with these, but my sense is that they have minimal install costs. https://uavionix.com/products/skybeacon/ If you decide to do a bigger panel overhaul down the road, removing and reselling the uAvionix unit seems possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 8 hours ago, toto said: You could probably screw on a uAvionix unit without making any other changes. I have no personal experience with these, but my sense is that they have minimal install costs. https://uavionix.com/products/skybeacon/ If you decide to do a bigger panel overhaul down the road, removing and reselling the uAvionix unit seems possible. You want something that will allow you to go to FL180 and beyond in a turbo Mooney. Uavionix limits you. For that money you can upgrade the GTX330 in the panel to a 330ES for ads-b out. (Edit: the 330ES assumes that you've converted your 530 to WAAS or swapped it for the Avidyne IFD540 like I mention in a previous post. The Uavionix would at least get you compliant until you decide what to do, then you could sell it and recoup some of your cost, or look for a used one to begin with) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 9 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: You want something that will allow you to go to FL180 and beyond in a turbo Mooney. Uavionix limits you. For that money you can upgrade the GTX330 in the panel to a 330ES for ads-b out. Fair enough. I was suggesting the uAvionix product only because it would gain ADS-B compliance with no panel changes - allowing more time to make a decision on the panel upgrade while focused on the engine in the short term. If you can add extended squitter to the 330 without cutting holes, then I completely agree - that’s the approach that I would take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 Download the JPI data. Last flight should be the prop strike. Can’t barely feel the prop strike and change in engine RPM on an actual data source are two different things. It is super strange that one blade is bent and the other is not. At even idle RPM your blade arc for the two blade is something like one blade every 50 milliseconds. Did it strike an actual object? Or did it really stop the engine at that blade. Anyway I think this plane is the find of the century but I have ZERO confidence in your motor dialed or not. Prop strike = dial or IRAN according to lycoming or continental service bulletin at a min. Engine sitting for 5 years = borescope / pull cylinder with care to maintain through bolt case integrity, frequent oil change and filter exams. Prop strike + sitting = do not past go. You are compounding risk. This isn’t a case of concern for avoiding infant mortality with engine work. This is split the darn thing and IRAN it at the least. You got an amazing plane for free. Don’t treat it like a throwaway item- get that engine opened up. Do everything you can to make sure it doesn’t fall out of the sky. Also consider getting your accessories (turbo) done. Mags based on hours / condition. You indicated you wanted a resto project- the engine is it. As for radios- your ads b solution is a little complicated by the dual 530s. Cheapest would be swap a 530W and sell the 530. However your WAAS box would not talk to your non-WAAS box to fill flight plans and data. In this scenario you’d swap the 330ES for the 330. It’s not exactly slide in as two pairs of wire need to be added between 530 and 330ES for adsb. You also need a ga35 antenna and you need to change the Rg-58 coax to RG-400. It’s probably 20 hrs labor. Next route would be a 335 or 345 with GPS. But you wouldn’t gain LPV approaches in that situation. I think my favored route would be to do a 375 GPS/WAAS. That gives you adsb out and in, and LPV approaches. Then put it a GNC 255 NAV/com below it. You already have the third CDI that would be required to do this. And you’re going to save a few pounds and get the panel cleaned up a bit. downside here is you’d need a FS210 to talk to the 530W to sync flight plans through an iPad. I don’t think you can interconnect the 530 and 375 directly. You got a great AP and a great HSI; consider GPSS. That will be a nice addition. You can ditch the DME. I always recommend a second independent attitude source in place of the turn coordinator. There’s good evidence we pilots are not too good at partial panel when the proverbial hits the fan. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 9 hours ago, Gubni said: I want to thank everyone for the comments. I can assure you I will do whatever it takes to get this plane in the air and it won't be scrapped or sold. I'm one of the most persistent people I've ever met, lol Someone mentioned a sudden stop on the engine. That was not the case at all. The pilot had no clue there was any damage to the prop. It definitely was not a sudden stop. I really appreciate all the advice. As you might imagine I don't understand all of it but that just means more to learn. I have the money to put a new engine in it but I really want to get it in annual and work out any small bugs there may be to make sure everything else is good. The issue with prop strikes on Continental engines is crankshafts crack. You can’t see a crack with a dial indicator or micrometer. You've found an amazing airplane virtually nothing, at very least pull the engine and have it checked or or overhauled. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrynimmo Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 It makes perfect sense to install your 4 conductor 22ga cable from wing to panel while plane is going through annual....as interior panels should be removed for inspection of roll cage for corrosion ...you will really appreciate the LHS call outs ...especially while training 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will1874 Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 So... everything can look good from the outside... but having the prop fall off in flight is generally bad.... Just think of the savings in weight and drag!Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F-1968 Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 This is an amazing find, especially if there is no corrosion to deal with. As someone who rebuilt an airplane with the intention to keep longterm, count your blessings as you will be in a financially good position to do what is right to create a safe and capable airplane. For what it is worth, I started my panel with a Garmin 530 and audio panel above it. When the GTN's came out, it was a no brainer to put in a GTN750 and GTN 650. The GTN750 will fit into the opening if you remove the 530 and audio panel and install the GTN750 with a blind audio panel. It will cost some money but you will be glad you did. BUT FIRST, get the engine, all accessories and turbo rebuilt. John Breda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 Assuming that it has been sitting for several years, it appears that the tanks are still sealed since the gauges both show something in them. What 100LL turns into over six years I don't know. I am curious why the owner set a hard date to make the deal when it's been sitting there for years and he probably had no intention of selling it at this very time had you not tracked him down. Good work Colombo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 22 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said: Assuming that it has been sitting for several years, it appears that the tanks are still sealed since the gauges both show something in them. What 100LL turns into over six years I don't know. I am curious why the owner set a hard date to make the deal when it's been sitting there for years and he probably had no intention of selling it at this very time had you not tracked him down. Good work Colombo. Just a guess, of course, but what we have here is an example of a RATIONAL seller! A very rare specimen, indeed. IIRC, the owner has been living outside the US, likely for many years, has been paying storage fees, knows he needed to sink the money into an engine IRAN and prop, plus whatever damage has occurred due to sitting....and realized it was unlikely he was going to get it in flying condition anytime soon...and might have to export out of the US if he actually wanted to fly it. Along comes the OP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 7 minutes ago, MikeOH said: Just a guess, of course, but what we have here is an example of a RATIONAL seller! A very rare specimen, indeed. IIRC, the owner has been living outside the US, likely for many years, has been paying storage fees, knows he needed to sink the money into an engine IRAN and prop, plus whatever damage has occurred due to sitting....and realized it was unlikely he was going to get it in flying condition anytime soon...and might have to export out of the US if he actually wanted to fly it. Along comes the OP I agree with what you said, but would the seller say no deal if the buyer proposed June 15th instead? Probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted May 22, 2021 Report Share Posted May 22, 2021 3 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said: I agree with what you said, but would the seller say no deal if the buyer proposed June 15th instead? Probably not. Maybe....I see your point. However, time has a way of changing things; the seller was facing reality, he's rational but not happy with finally taking the hit,...he just wanted the deal done with no possibility of getting yanked around by the buyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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