EricJ Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) It seems like a problematic issue with all of it is that the manufacturer isn't sharing info on the fault handling or reversion strategy of the devices. If you're trying to build a reliable system with a vendor's components and they're not providing the info to do so, that seems like a big step toward defeating any fail safes that might actually be (or not be) built into the systems. Edited May 31, 2021 by EricJ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 This is exactly why I like open systems built to standards. For instance, I currently have a GNS 430W, Aspen PFD, KX165 interfaced to the Aspen and a Garmin GI 106 OBS, a GTX 345 and a KAP 150. It all works together. But I’ve had some reliability issues with the older equipment which is becoming harder to get repaired. So I want a GFC 500. Well most of the autopilot software is baked into the attitude indicator, so I have to have a G5 or GI 275 or a G3X. It’s a closed system and you cannot pick and choose equipment from other vendors. You buy into an “ecosystem” as it’s commonly called (just like Apple products) and you have to trust that they will keep you happy because you can’t get out of it once you are in it. Garmin is a great company and they have certainly brought a lot of innovations to the market. But in so doing, they have eliminated options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 1 hour ago, PT20J said: No, I don't have a copy. But the RTCA has been setting the standards for this stuff for a long time and many FAA TSOs reference RTCA documents. You can buy a copy for $150 at https://www.rtca.org/ if you are really interested. Skip No, not that interested. I find it hard to know how troubled to be without knowing what the spec requires, is all I'm saying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 13 minutes ago, MikeOH said: No, not that interested. I find it hard to know how troubled to be without knowing what the spec requires, is all I'm saying. IIRC Garmin Support mentioned in one of the Beechtalk posts that one of the required maneuvers was an LPV approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 Just now, PT20J said: IIRC Garmin Support mentioned in one of the Beechtalk posts that one of the required maneuvers was an LPV approach. Yeah, then I agree that's troubling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCarlton Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 2 hours ago, PT20J said: You still need a pitch reference. Remember, partial panel is needle, ball and airspeed. Altitude would be good, too. We're going in circles now but that would be a digital attitude indicator should some company get all the bugs out. I would change out the vacuum AI but keep the TC, DG and other Pitot Static instruments. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 12 hours ago, Andy95W said: We’re only hearing the negative information. There have been a few AV30 problems, a handful of Aspen issues (which appear to be fixed), and 1 or 2 Garmin failures. This particular Garmin problem is due to a rare double failure- loss of pitot and loss of GPS connection. What we’re not hearing about are the thousands of trouble-free installations. I’m very comfortable with my dual G5’s and no vacuum system, although I do have an STEC autopilot with its turn coordinator as my emergency backup. Of this identified incident. There are two failing the exact same way. Your argument is about the statistician that drowned crossing a stream with an average depth of 4 feet. The Garmin marketing is this gauge is the basis for replacing all the round gauges in the panel. When in reality during this incarnation of the product, that is a pretty dangerous suggestion at this point. Will Garmin work it out. Most likely. But as everyone says around here you should not take the risk of being a test pilot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 So... pick your display panel manufacturer anyway you like... On Red X day... What is your plan B? 1) Keep the clean side up... 2) Navigate to the nearest radar approach facility... Vacuum systems have all been eliminated... because they weigh too much or take the real estate of the BU alternator... Looks like an electronic attitude indicator and a magnetic compass remain in or near the panel... E-AI has its own battery back-up... The mag compass does its own thing... Gonna need a portable radio for the final discussion with ATC... TCs are dead.... they are Ok for AP requirements but not for keeping the sunny side up... too many instrument and human failures to go with that... Things change in bumpy IMC.... compared to sunny days... PP thoughts only... try following a TC in bumpy IMC... the instrument won’t match you expectations of it... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 12 hours ago, PT20J said: This is exactly why I like open systems built to standards. For instance, I currently have a GNS 430W, Aspen PFD, KX165 interfaced to the Aspen and a Garmin GI 106 OBS, a GTX 345 and a KAP 150. It all works together. But I’ve had some reliability issues with the older equipment which is becoming harder to get repaired. So I want a GFC 500. Well most of the autopilot software is baked into the attitude indicator, so I have to have a G5 or GI 275 or a G3X. It’s a closed system and you cannot pick and choose equipment from other vendors. You buy into an “ecosystem” as it’s commonly called (just like Apple products) and you have to trust that they will keep you happy because you can’t get out of it once you are in it. Garmin is a great company and they have certainly brought a lot of innovations to the market. But in so doing, they have eliminated options. This is exactly why I don't like Garmin products and went the Dynon route. Dynon is a bit more open Trig radios and Transponders are integrated via Serial. Garmin are integrated via ARINC 429. The Dynon "network" spec is serial and is speced in the manual. So in theory you could integrate. While Garmin uses a CANBUS so you could integrate something there. I think there is a little Boeing max thing going on as I understand Garmin has in house FAA certification. Software is only as good as the testing design. It would seem an integration test or a failure mode test was not designed well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 23 minutes ago, Yetti said: This is exactly why I don't like Garmin products and went the Dynon route. Dynon is a bit more open Trig radios and Transponders are integrated via Serial. Garmin are integrated via ARINC 429. The Dynon "network" spec is serial and is speced in the manual. So in theory you could integrate. While Garmin uses a CANBUS so you could integrate something there. I think there is a little Boeing max thing going on as I understand Garmin has in house FAA certification. Software is only as good as the testing design. It would seem an integration test or a failure mode test was not designed well. Garmin uses a lot of different interfaces. I’ve really only looked at the details of a G3X installation, so others may be different. External GPS to the GDU is MapMx via RS-232. The magnetometer is CAN bus. The ADAHRS is CAN bus backed up with RS-232 to the GDU. ARINC 429 is standard for GPS navigators. In the G3X installation, Garmin uses a converter to interface the ARINC 429 to CAN bus. The advantage of CAN bus is that all devices can use the data provided by any broadcasting device. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 58 minutes ago, PT20J said: Garmin uses a lot of different interfaces. I’ve really only looked at the details of a G3X installation, so others may be different. External GPS to the GDU is MapMx via RS-232. The magnetometer is CAN bus. The ADAHRS is CAN bus backed up with RS-232 to the GDU. ARINC 429 is standard for GPS navigators. In the G3X installation, Garmin uses a converter to interface the ARINC 429 to CAN bus. The advantage of CAN bus is that all devices can use the data provided by any broadcasting device. What this really brings up is that I should probably write an update to Emergency procedures that includes how to recover from wiz bang failures. The problem is I think it would have to be a pretty large flow chart to handle all the scenarios. When I put the 10" screen in as primary, I will have 2 or three round holes left. I am thinking TC and Airspeed at this point. The TC is required for the Wing leveler and it has back up electric. If I go ahead and pull the Manual FP / MP gauge that would give me another hole to fill way over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted June 5, 2021 Report Share Posted June 5, 2021 On 5/21/2021 at 2:44 PM, EricJ said: I've been thinking of putting just a cheapie GPS antenna from Amazon on my G5 and leaving it on (or under) the glareshield for this reason. The specs for the antenna can be met with inexpensive units, but I haven't tried it yet. I would just keep my existing free vacuum system when I upgraded. Love my G5 (soon to be 2), love my old vacuum with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted January 8, 2022 Report Share Posted January 8, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Lloyd Posted January 8, 2022 Report Share Posted January 8, 2022 Shucks, I thought 2.42 was supposed to make these "more robust". 2.41, 2.42 were the shots and 2.43 is the booster? Now I am really suspicious this will work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly_M20R Posted January 8, 2022 Report Share Posted January 8, 2022 Ughhh!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted January 8, 2022 Report Share Posted January 8, 2022 No worries, guys, it's not an AD so for us it's not really "mandatory". Def not for me, I have G5s... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteMc Posted January 8, 2022 Report Share Posted January 8, 2022 My planes in getting a FW update for everything. Just sent my guy an email to find out if he had access to v2.43 when he did the updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted January 8, 2022 Report Share Posted January 8, 2022 Just one more reason why I'm perfectly happy with my ' stone-age vacuum' six-pack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.