Saving an M20C after gear-up landing

[Vance Harral]

53 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Since I am also a Mooney owner I get to share the cost of all the gear ups.

This is not an insightful statement.  Shared risk is the bedrock of all insurance.

I see this sort of complaint a lot: auto insurance, health insurance, whatever.  I'm safer/smarter/healthier than the other guy, so why should I pay for the cost of their poor decisions?  Shouldn't insurance companies separate the insurable pools into "good guys" and "bad guys", giving the former generous discounts while appropriately punishing the latter for their poor behavior?  After all, those  guys were accidents waiting to happen due to their poor habits/practices, whereas I  would only use insurance in some incredibly rare, unforeseen situation that wasn't at all my fault.

I think this attitude is counterproductive, but if you disagree, take action!  Set up an insurance pool with exactly one member: yourself.  Stop paying some third party for hull insurance, it's still 100% legal to do so.  Take the premiums you would have otherwise spent, and put them in the bank.  You can draw on those funds in the event of an act-of-god-that-was-totally-not-your-fault.  Since such a thing is obviously an incredibly rare event, you'll almost certainly have plenty of money in the bank if it ever occurs.  And if it doesn't, you keep all your money, with none of it going to those scofflaws who are ruining the insurance system.

 

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

I have a full set of belly skins , I have new , and used gear doors , and plenty of flap hinges , and fairings , flaps too , if you need them... Insurance will base a total off of a 30% return on salvage , Meaning that if the plane is insured for 58000 , they will write a check for up to 40600.00   Your plane is not totaled...12 K for a teardown , 12 k for a prop , 12 k for labor , and belly repairs ... You should be way under total , If by some miracle , you come in over 40.6 K , you can have them buy out their liability for the 40.6 K and be on your own... An old C will never bring   18 K at salvage auction , plus there are costs of storage , and transport , that the insurance will want to get out of.... I do this for a living , Just sit back , and see where you are at , If you get Close , People like me and Jerry , can supply the parts cheap enough , to save it ...   Good luck..  Also if you don't buy it back , at auction , I just might buy from the insurance auction , and rebuild it ...

Unfortunately, I can’t “Like” this post more than once. Great advice and information. 

[MBDiagMan]

40 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

This is not an insightful statement.  Shared risk is the bedrock of all insurance.

I see this sort of complaint a lot: auto insurance, health insurance, whatever.  I'm safer/smarter/healthier than the other guy, so why should I pay for the cost of their poor decisions?  Shouldn't insurance companies separate the insurable pools into "good guys" and "bad guys", giving the former generous discounts while appropriately punishing the latter for their poor behavior?  After all, those  guys were accidents waiting to happen due to their poor habits/practices, whereas I  would only use insurance in some incredibly rare, unforeseen situation that wasn't at all my fault.

I think this attitude is counterproductive, but if you disagree, take action!  Set up an insurance pool with exactly one member: yourself.  Stop paying some third party for hull insurance, it's still 100% legal to do so.  Take the premiums you would have otherwise spent, and put them in the bank.  You can draw on those funds in the event of an act-of-god-that-was-totally-not-your-fault.  Since such a thing is obviously an incredibly rare event, you'll almost certainly have plenty of money in the bank if it ever occurs.  And if it doesn't, you keep all your money, with none of it going to those scofflaws who are ruining the insurance system.

 

It’s very easy to see what business you’re in.

I think it’s a bit unfair to say publicly what I think without ever having met me.  You made such a judgment based on a few paragraphs that you read on a discussion forum.  You know nothing about me.

Actually I have given quite a lot of thought to self insuring.

If you would not have withheld part of my post from your quote, you would have shown that I was told flat out by my insurance person that due to so many Mooney’s being gear upped of late, the premiums are on the rise.  That would have been more fair than blasting me without mention of the fact that I had a source for such information.

I have never had a claim, an accident, a violation, a DWI, etc.  wouldn’t it be appropriate for those without a problematic history to get a slightly lower improved rate?

[gsxrpilot]

13 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

I have never had a claim, an accident, a violation, a DWI, etc.  wouldn’t it be appropriate for those without a problematic history to get a slightly lower improved rate?

You already do.

 

[Sienicwi]

2 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

I’m sure he feels sick about it and I have empathy, but I just wonder if he understands that he contributed to rising Mooney insurance rates? When I talked to my insurance person about the rapidly rising rates she said that there had been a rising number of gear up landings.  Since I am also a Mooney owner I get to share the cost of all the gear ups.

I appreciate you wanting to educate, but whether or not he knew is irrelevant given that he didn't deliberately gear-up, he just made an honest mistake. That is the point of having insurance. He's not a bad or reckless pilot, and he's going to have to go through a lot of hassle and work, his own increased insurance rates too, and possibly lose his plane, and he will be an even better pilot for it. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Sienicwi

[Sienicwi]

19 hours ago, carusoam said:

@Sienicwi,
 

We have a few valuable resources for some of the parts you may be needing...

@Alan Fox has helped a few people with their Mooney parts...

@Jerry Pressley has helped a few people with their Mooney parts...

If you can get pictures of the damage, they can probably help you with getting replacements of the pre-flown variety...

And... if for some reason... the Mooney doesn’t fly again, Alan has ways to handle that as well...

PP thoughts only, expect this to improve with time....  

Best regards,

-a-

Thank you SO MUCH

[Vance Harral]

57 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

It’s very easy to see what business you’re in.

I think it’s a bit unfair to say publicly what I think without ever having met me.

Oh, the irony...

For the record, I am not in the insurance business and have no affiliation with any insurance company other than as a customer: aviation or otherwise.

[Sienicwi]

4 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

I have a full set of belly skins , I have new , and used gear doors , and plenty of flap hinges , and fairings , flaps too , if you need them... Insurance will base a total off of a 30% return on salvage , Meaning that if the plane is insured for 58000 , they will write a check for up to 40600.00   Your plane is not totaled...12 K for a teardown , 12 k for a prop , 12 k for labor , and belly repairs ... You should be way under total , If by some miracle , you come in over 40.6 K , you can have them buy out their liability for the 40.6 K and be on your own... An old C will never bring   18 K at salvage auction , plus there are costs of storage , and transport , that the insurance will want to get out of.... I do this for a living , Just sit back , and see where you are at , If you get Close , People like me and Jerry , can supply the parts cheap enough , to save it ...   Good luck..  Also if you don't buy it back , at auction , I just might buy from the insurance auction , and rebuild it ...

This is fantastic! I will definitely pass this information on to him! THANK YOU

[MBDiagMan]

2 hours ago, Sienicwi said:

I appreciate you wanting to educate, but whether or not he knew is irrelevant given that he didn't deliberately gear-up, he just made an honest mistake. That is the point of having insurance. He's not a bad or reckless pilot, and he's going to have to go through a lot of hassle and work, his own increased insurance rates too, and possibly lose his plane, and he will be an even better pilot for it. 

I’m sure he’s a good guy and I cant imagine it being anything other than a mistake that I’m sure he feels horrible about.  The first thing I wrote was that I have empathy for him, but there has been a rash of Mooney gear ups that’s costing all of us.  Let’s try to be careful okay!

[gsxrpilot]

Yes, we should all be careful and not gear up our airplanes. But the reason being that it might increase everyone else's insurance rates a few dollars... is so far down the list of reasons that it's a complete waste of an otherwise good brain cell to even think about it.

#firstworldproblems

 

[carusoam]

Hard feelings are often shared...

There is a running count of how many Mooneys have had GU landings each week....

Most often, it is Mooney pilots that are not members of MS...

Insurance rates have gone up over the last couple of years...  and insurance companies were happy to mention that GU landings are part of that increase...

It is probably 3$ for everyone... where the increases were more in line with $300...  but, there are entirely different reasons for the increase.... the 737 Max took some blame for GA insurance increases too... the two big planes, and loss of hundreds of lives... completely dwarf GA losses...

And half of those losses... really didn’t have to happen... same problem, different day..

 

There are a number of challenges that Mooney pilots are going to endure... it is important to know about these things some how...

I recommend joining MS... and become part of the conversation...  it takes the fear out of things before they happen...

Finding Jerry and Alan in a pre-MS environment was not easy...  a friend of a friend knew something about Jerry’s business... it took me a month to make contact...

There are many strategies and pieces of hardware to minimize the risk of having another GU landing...  read about them...share them...

Make the change to improve your odds of not having another....

If following the standard procedures often taught with Transition Training....

There are three Gumps checks.... where the G is for gear.... you have three opportunities to undo a simple omission...

There is a green light to indicate the gear and the ship is ready for landing....

There is this horrible droning Bee buzzing in your ear above your head.... so distracting, you feel uneasy about landing while that is going on...

 

Share with your friend...  the word ‘distraction’...  this is the word that gets used to describe how a good pilot can miss so many cues...

It is proof... GU landings happen to human beings... because, they are human...

 

There are quite a few things that get covered in Transition Training...   The GU landing is the barely important one...  there are a few more important than that...

If you think scraping the belly is expensive... review the syllabus for TT...

+1 For Alan giving so much detail related to GU repairs...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

One summer we started keeping track of all the prop strikes, gear ups, and collapses in the Mooney fleet.  There were one or two every week from the beginning of  Spring until the winter months.  I'm frankly surprised any of can get insurance for our airplanes.  I suspect strongly that our insurance pool is subsidized heavily by Skyhawks and other fixed gear aircraft.  There just aren't enough Mooneys to pay for all the Mooney damage.

 

[Guest]

This thread should be tagged to the “ is it a sin to buy a Cirrus” thread.   It seems like a bunch of Mooney pilots are being trained to land “gear up” 

Clarence

[Alan Fox]

On 5/14/2021 at 7:32 PM, M20Doc said:

I would expect the insurance company to pay for repairs up to the insured value less the deductible.  Sure they’re motivated to write it off to lower their losses, but they did insure it for $58K.  If the insured value won’t repair it, the owner may want to kick in the difference if he truly wants to save the plane.

Clarence

Actually Clarence , when you insure it , you enter into a contract , that allows the insurance to purchase it for the agreed upon value , They will never pay up to the insured value for repairs , 70% is max...they pay you 100% , and reclaim 30% by salvage...  I have personally negotiated 70% buyouts , but they are very keen on salvage values.... 

[Alan Fox]

On 5/14/2021 at 2:38 PM, ArtVandelay said:

Do insurance companies prorate the cost of the engine tear down, for example OP said engine had 500 hours left, so assuming 2000 TBO and $20,000 to overhaul it, I would expect them to cap the money for the tear down to $5000.

The teardown is not prorated , BUT they only cover costs associated with removal , disassembly , and reassembly... 12 to 15 K , Which is why most people elect to do an overhaul , with the insurance company paying 40 % of the cost...

[Alan Fox]

On 5/17/2021 at 3:24 PM, MBDiagMan said:

I’m sure he feels sick about it and I have empathy, but I just wonder if he understands that he contributed to rising Mooney insurance rates? When I talked to my insurance person about the rapidly rising rates she said that there had been a rising number of gear up landings.  Since I am also a Mooney owner I get to share the cost of all the gear ups.

I hate to break it to you , but the gear ups are already figured into the pool , What was NOT figured in , was the multi billion dollar tornado at John C Tune , in Nashville last year , And that is what we are all paying for , and will be paying for years to come , I think the damage to the buildings was 93 million , Guarantee there was probably 3 times that in aircraft also....

[BKlott]

On 5/18/2021 at 7:03 PM, M20Doc said:

This thread should be tagged to the “ is it a sin to buy a Cirrus” thread.   It seems like a bunch of Mooney pilots are being trained to land “gear up” 

Clarence

A cynic might say that when a CB gets near then end of his flying days, when the plane needs everything (paint, interior, glass, avionics, engine and prop...because the CB didn’t want to spend any money on the airplane in the first place) he should go ahead and perform a gear up landing. That way he can collect on the hull coverage and get some money out of the plane without having to deal with the hassles of trying to the sell the airplane that nobody wants to buy. He’s done flying anyway, so what does he care?

Is that scenario called a pre-meditated gear up?

[carusoam]

BK,

We could ask Parker...

But the wording of the question probably needs to be worked out in advance....

Parker, How many nights, weeks, months, might I be held, if/when...   

 

I’m pretty sure that flight plan is the OWT of all times...

Best regards,

-a-

[BKlott]

2 minutes ago, carusoam said:

BK,

We could ask Parker...

But the wording of the question probably needs to be worked out in advance....

Parker, How many nights, weeks, months, might I be held, if/when...   

 

I’m pretty sure that flight plan is the OWT of all times...

Best regards,

-a-

It is safe for me to ask the question because:

1) I am a fixed gear owner

2) With all that I have had done to my airplane and all the money that has been spent on it, no one could ever accuse me of being a CB. They could accuse me of being an overly sentimental, irrational financial knucklehead...but that is a different story.

[Alan Fox]

9 hours ago, BKlott said:

It is safe for me to ask the question because:

1) I am a fixed gear owner

2) With all that I have had done to my airplane and all the money that has been spent on it, no one could ever accuse me of being a CB. They could accuse me of being an overly sentimental, irrational financial knucklehead...but that is a different story.

welcome to the club

[Greg Ellis]

I want to thank @Alan Fox for entering into this conversation.  I learned a lot from his 3 or 4 posts that I really had no idea about.  I was not sure how insurances work when it comes to airplanes and I appreciate his input and educating me.  You just have to love MooneySpace.com!!!  

[MikeOH]

20 hours ago, BKlott said:

A cynic might say that when a CB gets near then end of his flying days, when the plane needs everything (paint, interior, glass, avionics, engine and prop...because the CB didn’t want to spend any money on the airplane in the first place) he should go ahead and perform a gear up landing. That way he can collect on the hull coverage and get some money out of the plane without having to deal with the hassles of trying to the sell the airplane that nobody wants to buy. He’s done flying anyway, so what does he care?

Is that scenario called a pre-meditated gear up?

I'm pretty sure that scenario is called insurance fraud.

[Sienicwi]

Out of curiosity, is there some kind of aircraft mechanic directory somewhere? Obviously the owner wants to gather multiple quotes to compare and make sure he's getting the best price, but it seems difficult to locate mechanics. I've done some googling, but haven't found a directory, so I figured I'd ask here in case I was missing something. 

[carusoam]

Most often... a new thread with a direct request works well...

People often mention who they are using where...

So... a search may turn up something, sometimes...

 

Often a highly popular Mooney mechanic in an area... has already been working on the plane...

 

Ethical treatment of your wallet... may demand finding the next best Mooney Mechanic in the area... for an independent PPI.

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales man...

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

On 5/19/2021 at 9:11 PM, Alan Fox said:

Actually Clarence , when you insure it , you enter into a contract , that allows the insurance to purchase it for the agreed upon value , They will never pay up to the insured value for repairs , 70% is max...they pay you 100% , and reclaim 30% by salvage...  I have personally negotiated 70% buyouts , but they are very keen on salvage values.... 

 

This must be a unique item in policies south of the border?  I’ve never seen a limitation on any of my policies saying they will not repair above 70% of insured hull value.  I can see their motivation in an effort to limit their exposure, but I’ve never seen it written in the policy.

Clarence