182, SR-20, or a M20R

[carusoam]

Let’s review Jeff’s numbers for a second...

147 statute miles...

Racing...

218 mph....

In a family hauler....

Using only 310 NA hp...

 

If you went that fast around the Indy Motor Speedway....

You wouldn’t need to stop for fuel, or tires.... in the allotted 500 statute miles...

Taking the win would be easy...   

Go O!

Best regards,

-a-

[CoffeeCan]

18 hours ago, Ethan said:

Gordin,

The Skylane is the most versatile single-engine airplane under the sun. You can load it up with people and gas, fly it to grass strips, land it on really short strips, take off from really short strios, you won’t forget to extend the landing gear, it’s easy to fly, it’s a great instrument platform, it’s cheaper to own and maintain than a Mooney. You would probably be happy with it forever. So what if you can’t go as fast as a Mooney . . . flying is fun, spend more time aloft!

I do love my 231, but I would love a 182 just as much. What sucks about the Mooney is I am a little hesitant (some will scoff) at landing at grass strips - especially short ones. When my taildragger buddies fly off into the wilds of Idaho to camp, I just look forlornly at the horizon and tell them I can’t join them. I would join them in a 182.

Good luck

I am reluctant to land on unimproved runways in my M20K, so you're not alone here, Ethan...  I might risk grass, but dirt/gravel strips with a low-slung Mooney, IMHO you're just asking for trouble!

I had the same ambivalence about backcountry accessibility when I traded my 172XP for my Mooney, but in the end it was easy:  a realistic evaluation of my actual flying, and the flying I was most likely to continue to do (or expand upon) led me to the conclusion that my real mission was/is medium- to long-distance flying, not backcountry camping. Besides, I live too far from the mountains here to fly a backcountry-capable 172 or 182 or Super Cub to the campgrounds. 

I have to say, though, the 200 hours I logged in my 172 were tremendously satisfying, and a deep and broad learning experience. I've heard some folks say the first couple hundred hours you get after your PP checkride are the best opportunity for learning how to be a true pilot you'll ever get, and I sure was able to use my Cessna to the max in that regard. 

[gsxrpilot]

I think the question about mission is around what type of flying do you want to do. If the flights are local, less than 50 mile trips, then the Mooney is probably overkill. But you also mention trips to Colorado or the mountains out west? One flight with the kids from the east coast to Colorado in the SR20 or C182 will probably cure you of flying. It would not be fun and will probably take a few days. The Mooney will put just about everything east of the Mississippi in range for lunch and the rest of the country in range for dinner. 

From my perspective, the SR20 is going to be like flying a newer Cessna 172. It's nice to look at and has a very nice interior, but is like a trainer. The Cessna 182 is like buying an F150 pickup truck. It's pretty basic, easy to fly, but slow. Everyone will tell you how it will haul so much more than the Mooneys, but if you stop for fuel in the Mooney as often as you'll stop for fuel in the C182, the Mooney will actually carry more weight. And you won't really need to worry about high altitude with either the Cirrus or the Cessna because you won't want to fly either one of them that far. They'll go that far, but it will take a lot of time and frequent stops for gas, diversions for weather, etc. A friend of mine here in Denver is selling a 182 to buy into a Mooney. He made one trip in his 182 from Denver to Florida and said never again, it took three days and was a long slow bumpy flight.

The Mooney is the most efficient traveling machine of all of them. But it's a serious traveling airplane demanding serious attention. It's a wonderful IFR platform with the added benefit of speed and range to get around weather when that's a better option. It will take a few hours to get comfortable in an Ovation (what you'll need to get a G1000), but you can do it. And once you're comfortable in the Mooney, you'll never think about the SR20 or the 182 ever again.

I for one don't agree with the step by step method. Start with a 182 and then move up to an Ovation. I don't like that at all, but then if you're not sure about the whole ownership thing, then a 182 is less of a mistake than an Ovation is. But no one knows you better than you. And if you're eventually going to want a serious traveling machine like an Ovation, then the time in a 182 will be miserable and wasted. Of course if you live in Idaho and all your friends fly bush planes, then the Ovation might not be the best choice. But for getting up and down the east coast and only landing at airports with crew cars and paved runways, the Mooney is the machine you want. Don't waste the time or the money on the others.

We'll find someone with an Ovation in the Mass area for you to go fly with. That will help you with your decision.

[BKlott]

I wouldn’t be so hard on the 182 with regards to cross country travels. My wife and I left West Central Florida one Sunday morning and enjoyed an early dinner on the Riverwalk in San Antonio that afternoon. We accomplished that in a 150 hp 172M without the benefit of a tailwind. A 182 would be much faster.

The other advantages to a late model 182T would include a factory corrosion proofed airframe, a Lycoming engine that gets you away from Continental cylinders but does give you the Lycoming camshaft issue, fixed gear, a modern panel and the more crashworthy seats. Takeoff and climb performance make trips out West and the high density altitude departures more feasible. 
 

The 182 is no Mooney but it is a very viable candidate for private ownership. With Insurance premiums increasing on RGs and Insurance Companies tightening availability for older pilots, I wouldn’t be so quick to overlook a late model 182.

 

 

[Cruiser]

from the insurance perspective the 182 is the winner hands down. 

[201Steve]

Insurance... should be the last, very minor, variable. $1800 vs $2500 whoopdy doo. You needed a new set of spark plugs or a new iPad. Bout the same and about the cheapest. Am I wrong?

[arikanoandy]

On 5/12/2021 at 7:52 PM, Gordon Freeman said:

Good point!  The quotes I've received from AVEMCO for a SR-20 that would be rented to other pilots (so long as they meet insurance-imposed requirements) was about $7200/annum.  I have yet to receive one for a Mooney.  

Insurance is getting stupid.  Paid $1400 to insure a Comanche 250 last year, this year I bought into a 201 and the insurance jumped from $2900 to right at $6000!!!!  Might be time to post a bond for hull coverage (Like 100K) and pick up a liability only policy.  I can only imagine the more expensive M20R would be a "BOHICA" type situation.

 

 

 

[BKlott]

33 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

Insurance... should be the last, very minor, variable. $1800 vs $2500 whoopdy doo. You needed a new set of spark plugs or a new iPad. Bout the same and about the cheapest. Am I wrong?

Well, I sure have been reading a lot of Insurance premium increase related comments on Beechtalk.Com, Mooneyspace.Com and the Super Viking forum the past year or so. It seems like the aircraft owners facing these higher premium costs think it is a big whoopdy doo.

[dogbocks]

With 130 hours total and no complex/hi-performance I bet the OP's M20R insurance would be $7k-$10k a year. No idea what it would be on the C182, maybe close. Anyway, insurance is a real expense now especially for a low time pilot. 

[bradp]

OP needs to figure out what kind of flying he will be doing 80% of his trips and buy around that.  Mooney and 182 are both great for slightly different purposes.  I don’t see unimproved surfaces on his list of wants, nor do I see pack to the gills and fly it.  Trips to BID, or ME - either one would work.  Up and down the coast and there’s  a significant advantage to the Mooney for sure.  West coast and mountain flying you’d consider a turbo.  
 

Unless the waas issue is solved I’d avoid the newer G1000 models and look for one that can be upgraded. 
 

I know I’m Gods gift to aviation, but I bought my J at around 150 hrs and an IFR ticket. It’s doable with proper commitment to training.  It takes the proper commitment to training and currency.  
 

Where are you located?  I’d consider looking at DXR, BDR depending on where you are located.  It’s not just the paint- avionics and airframe will have a hell of a hard time outside.  Plus you will get snow and ice, and spend about 75% less time taking care of your bird than if you’re in a hangar.  Trust me I was in the ramp for two years in OWD with no hangar options. It ain’t easy in the NE.   

[201Steve]

16 hours ago, dogbocks said:

With 130 hours total and no complex/hi-performance I bet the OP's M20R insurance would be $7k-$10k a year. No idea what it would be on the C182, maybe close. Anyway, insurance is a real expense now especially for a low time pilot. 

 

18 hours ago, BKlott said:

Well, I sure have been reading a lot of Insurance premium increase related comments on Beechtalk.Com, Mooneyspace.Com and the Super Viking forum the past year or so. It seems like the aircraft owners facing these higher premium costs think it is a big whoopdy doo.

I’m just saying. For me, 2 years ago, it was a whoopdy doo. There are a lot of penny pinching CB’s around here and there that are upset by the principal of the matter more than anything. (Nothing but love people!) Just see for yourself. Get two quotes of similar year and hull coverage of a fixed vs complex. My experience was, the delta between a fixed gear premium and a complex premium with (at the time) 150 hrs TT all in a Skyhawk, was like $600 /year difference. 
 

I’ve had $600 drop out my pocket just looking through the Spruce catalog. $600 is a rounding error for the last 3 times I’ve been to the shop. $600 is the difference between an A20 and a David Clarke. $600 is 2 hours tach time. 
 

[Urs_Wildermuth]

On 5/13/2021 at 2:52 AM, Gordon Freeman said:

 Four kids, two of which are toddlers, a business to run, and balancing it all is what eats up my day.

If you have a family, then you will have to review the whole affair very differently indeed.

4 kids and their mum plus you will never fit into any of the planes you are looking at. That is Cessna 210 or Piper Cherokee6/Saratoga/Lance territory or even Twin.

There is another question you need to ask: What about your wife's feelings about you buying a plane and one which the family is forcibly going to be excluded from?

Generally I'd have to say, a low time pilot with a family should ether go the Cirrus/Shute way or then think very hard on how to make it work with the family. A 4 seater, most of which in reality are 2-3 seaters and a 6 head family simply don't work.

So either you want a plane for yourself to fly around, in which case you can get anything from a Piper Cub to a SR20 or even Acclaim e.t.c. but whether you will be happy to fly alone is a question you have to know for yourself. At the same time, with a family of 6 you also are a provider and therefore carry a huge responsibility. So you will need to get a compromise in there which makes all that viable.

As for insurance e.t.c. it appears to me that new pilots may get insurance on models like up to the J model, but for long bodies and higher engined airplanes you will struggle. Insurances appear to be very reluctant to insure GA at all these days and if they do, then at whopping prices as you quoted. There may be a reason why you have not gotten a quote on a Mooney as a low timer: You simply won't get one.

 

[Cruiser]

Anyone seriously considering putting every member of your family in a plane including young children should step back for a minute and re-evaluate. There is risk in flying and exposing every member of a family at one time should be thought through very, very carefully. 

[Ragsf15e]

6 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

Anyone seriously considering putting every member of your family in a plane including young children should step back for a minute and re-evaluate. There is risk in flying and exposing every member of a family at one time should be thought through very, very carefully. 

Well sheesh, what about when we’re all in a car together?  Or maybe we can fly ourselves but send the misses and the kids on the train?  I don’t mean to be flippant, but once we’ve decided flying is safe enough for us to travel and (possibly) convinced our wives as well, leaving the kids at home because it’s not wise to have us all together seems like we were wrong in the first place?

[geoffb]

Unless there’s some reason to not buy a Skylane, buy a Skylane.  Fast enough, super capable, simple systems, easy to maintain, land damn near anywhere, take whatever you want.  Probably inexpensive to insure.  Alway has had strong resale, because it does it all.

If 80% of my flying didn’t significantly benefit from extra speed and I didn’t fly enough miles in the year to notice the fuel savings, I’d trade the Mooney in a second for a 182.

I’ve been all over the west coast in my E, and a good 182 is close to 90% the TAS in cruise.  Burns a bit more doing it of course on 230 hp.  So my average trip of 450 nm would take something like 20 min longer in the 182.  And in the Cessna you could take the wife, kids all their stuff and fuel and be comfortable.

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, geoffb said:

Unless there’s some reason to not buy a Skylane, buy a Skylane. 

 

I have two friends who own Skylane's, and I love flying in them. The only negative that is immediately apparent to me is when I watch them refueling. Both of my friends are over 60 and I cringe when I see them climbing up the ladder (or worse, the narrow step and grab handle) and trying to balance the hose at the same time.

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, Cruiser said:

Anyone seriously considering putting every member of your family in a plane including young children should step back for a minute and re-evaluate. There is risk in flying and exposing every member of a family at one time should be thought through very, very carefully. 

I knew a family where the mom and dad and family never flew - airlines together.  They would strategically split up half on one airline and half on another airline - to carry on the gene pool I guess.  But they would go to the airport in one minivan.  Go figure.  Maybe they needed to split up the driving as well into two separate bullet proof armored vehicles?

[geoffb]

6 hours ago, Cruiser said:

Anyone seriously considering putting every member of your family in a plane including young children should step back for a minute and re-evaluate. There is risk in flying and exposing every member of a family at one time should be thought through very, very carefully. 

Ok.  Thought about it.  Done.

[geoffb]

3 hours ago, GEE-BEE said:

Depends on mission type and payload 

1973 C182p and later is hard to beat

I just sold my 1984 a36 with all options 

Best mod was 8” wheel and metallic brakes

GB

 

If set on a retract, A36 is thought to beat as a family hauler.

[Amelia]

I was in the OP’s shoes several years ago. I had decided to buy another airplane, and the field was wide open. I loved my C172, ever so many years ago, but had caught the Mooney bug from three of the loveliest M20K partners anyone could ask for. Decades passed. Then spent a year away from aviation, and a couple of awful airline experiences had this old lady once again in the market for her own wings. C182? Perfect for my brother’s commercial photography business, grand for back country mountain airstrips. But less perfect for long continent-crossing expeditions. I had flown out to see my friend Bob in eastern Oregon, and it took us an easy day and a half from our coast to his. When we arrived, he invited us to follow his vintage 182 into a gorgeous Idaho wilderness lodge’s 1500’ of goat track far down in a canyon. . Ah, nope. We’d like to go in your shiny airplane, please! Different airplanes for different missions! I had found I could buy a lot more Mooney than Beech or Cessna for a given sum. Faster, better equipped, newer, and no stepladder required, a Mooney makes for quick trips to see grandkids. I want two airplanes, actually. One a nice Champ or Cub for low and slow local unimproved strip fun, and my Screaming Eagle to visit far flung friends. Why, yes, I do want it all, thanks.

[carusoam]

SR20 is out...  under powered.

C182 is falling fast... all power, no speed.
 

Mooney with the most powerful power to weight ratio...

Screamin’ Eagle!

Go Amelia!

Mooneys are built for travelin’...

East coast travelin’...  nothing beats a Screamin’ Eagle....

Best regards,

-a-

[Schllc]

11 hours ago, Cruiser said:

Anyone seriously considering putting every member of your family in a plane including young children should step back for a minute and re-evaluate. There is risk in flying and exposing every member of a family at one time should be thought through very, very carefully. 

I do it all the time.
A good friend of mine who flies has as well told me a that after his wife told a story of an RV jackknifing on a mountain road one day, that someone told him “stuff always happens to you guys”. He responded, yeah, because we do things!

it’s much safer on the couch, but we choose to live our lives.  I sure hope nothing tragic happens, but I’m not going to operate out of fear either. 
to each  their own....

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

I do it all the time.
A good friend of mine who flies has as well told me a that after his wife told a story of an even jackknifing on a mountain road one day, that someone told him “stuff always happens to you guys”. He responded, yeah, because we do things!

it’s much safer on the couch, but we choose to live our lives.  I sure hope nothing tragic happens, but I’m not going to operate out of fear either. 
to each  their own....

But the couch isn’t safe either.  There are plenty of diseases for the vice sin of lethargy and sloth.  Just ask any cardiologist.  I would bet money that couches and couch lethargy diseases kill more people every year than airplanes guns snowmobiles sail boats horses bungy jumping skate boards and bicycles combined.

[thinwing]

On 5/13/2021 at 6:38 AM, Jeff_S said:

I can't really add anything to the discussion that's already seen above.  I think in general the Mooney community understands the benefits and limitations of our planes compared to alternatives, and I echo most of what's already been posted.  Except for Anthony...he always gets everything completely wrong! (That's an inside joke...Anthony actually hits the nail on the head 99.999% of the time.)

I can tell you a story that generally speaks to the qualities of the Ovation, though.  I got this anecdote from longtime Mooney lover, Mooney salesperson and friend of the community, Richard Simile.  Fifteen years ago, Richard was contacted by none other than Scott Crossfield of legendary X-plane fame.  Scott was looking to replace his Cessna 210A and he had researched the market.  Richard is a self-professed Scott Crossfield fanatic, so he had a great chance to speak with Scott and get the benefits of his research.  Scott Crossfield, first man to go twice the speed of sound, set multitudes of records in high-powered airplanes and long-time general aviation flyer, had decided that the Mooney Ovation was absolutely the best GA single-engine available, considering all his requirements for speed, efficiency, quality of flight, etc. (Apparently moving down from a C210, load hauling was not high on his needs list!) So they started looking for a model he could buy.

Of course, this purchase never made it to fruition due to other tragic circumstances, but that is one thing I always think about when I get in and fire up my Ovation: it was the plane of choice for one of the most accomplished aviators ever.

That, and the fact that I am still UNDEFEATED in racing my Ovation in the Sport Air Race League!  We had the Sunrise 100 a few weekends ago, and even in bumpy air I was still able to average 217.65 MPH (not knots) over a 128NM course for Best Production Category racer.  Bring it on!!  

I wonder if Scott Crossfield was flying an Ovation that day in a thunder storm,if the wings would have survived the turbulence

[BKlott]

On 5/16/2021 at 12:08 PM, flyboy0681 said:

I have two friends who own Skylane's, and I love flying in them. The only negative that is immediately apparent to me is when I watch them refueling. Both of my friends are over 60 and I cringe when I see them climbing up the ladder (or worse, the narrow step and grab handle) and trying to balance the hose at the same time.

Good point! Every time I climb the ladder to fuel the 172, I think about the Grumman Cheetah I once had and long for a C model like my Dad owned.