Traveling in a Covid World

[Guest]

I’ve asked myself who am I willing to kill by not getting a vaccine?  My elderly relatives, siblings, elderly neighbours.  
I didn’t get a number of horrible diseases as a child because of hard working scientists, doctors and my parents who trusted them.  

I took the first vaccine I was able to get, and so far I’m fine.

Clarence

[1964-M20E]

I have avoided commercial flights not because I am afraid but because of all the added BS associated with flying commercial today.  I have traveled to places when I wanted and traveled for work driving and flying my Mooney..

 

I believe that everyone is free to choose to get vaccinated or not.  Nobody should be coerced, intimidated, bullied or discriminated against if they have been vaccinated or not.   Vaccine passports, different lines, seating areas etc. should not be required or done this is discrimination and is illegal.  The same goes for religion, race, sex, type of plane owned etc.

 

Are you afraid of covid?  Take care of yourself and get the vaccine period.   Once you have been vaccinated become unafraid and go back to living your life.  Decreasing demand for the vaccines are the citizens speaking to the gov't saying get out of my life.  Coercion, bullying etc. will only make those hesitant to get the vaccine dig their heels in further.

 

I choose to avoid businesses and places that still insist on telling me to wear a mask just as I have done for the past year.  Am I vaccinated???   I'm not sharing that information that is personal health information between me and my doctors.  Everyone has the right to do what they think is best for themselves.

 

[Davidv]

At least this is all fun to sit back and watch the impending political implosion.
 

“Mr. President why are you wearing a mask outside when the CDC says it’s not necessary since you’re vaccinated, do you not trust the CDC?”

”no I’m just being careful and patriotic”

”so people who follow the guidance of the CDC aren’t being careful?”

<crickets>

[aviatoreb]

18 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

I have avoided commercial flights not because I am afraid but because of all the added BS associated with flying commercial today.  I have traveled to places when I wanted and traveled for work driving and flying my Mooney..

 

I believe that everyone is free to choose to get vaccinated or not.  Nobody should be coerced, intimidated, bullied or discriminated against if they have been vaccinated or not.   Vaccine passports, different lines, seating areas etc. should not be required or done this is discrimination and is illegal.  The same goes for religion, race, sex, type of plane owned etc.

 

Are you afraid of covid?  Take care of yourself and get the vaccine period.   Once you have been vaccinated become unafraid and go back to living your life.  Decreasing demand for the vaccines are the citizens speaking to the gov't saying get out of my life.  Coercion, bullying etc. will only make those hesitant to get the vaccine dig their heels in further.

 

I choose to avoid businesses and places that still insist on telling me to wear a mask just as I have done for the past year.  Am I vaccinated???   I'm not sharing that information that is personal health information between me and my doctors.  Everyone has the right to do what they think is best for themselves.

 

Requiring vaccine for activities has been around since forever.  I was required to get a buffet menu of vaccines to go to school.  So were most of us here.  It has been ruled legal long ago.

Saying "etc. will only make those hesitant to get the vaccine dig their heels in further." does it really make any difference?  I mean a person who has already dug their heals in and is afraid to get vaccinated, whether they are afraid of the needle, or a conspiracy about vaccines and government implanted chips, or whatever, is it the rule that no one should say anything?  I think its dumb.  Its free.  Its safe, and it significantly reduces each individual's likelihood of getting sick and dying.  But more important to me than what happens to you, is my own access to normal world, normal economy, etc, is if the large fraction of people get vaccinated.  Unless that then we will be playing this stupid pandemic world game for years to come.  It takes all of us to participate.  We beat polio.  We beat small pox.  But now we are afraid of needles?

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

.We beat polio.  We beat small pox.  But now we are afraid of needles?

We beat those nasty diseases without shutting down the economy and locking ourselves into our houses, too. Everyone who was healthy (i.e., not currently sick) went on and lived their lives. Many are not being given that chance now, not because of science but because of politics. And the politicians shut down all discussion and most questions, because the Why's and Wherefores cannot be answered . . . .

[aviatoreb]

12 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’m not afraid of the needle, I’m afraid of the database. I still haven’t figured out how to get vaccinated anonymously. How do the homeless people do it? Maybe I should go down to the riverbed and ask around?  
 

It isn’t about getting vaccinated, it’s about getting in the system. If I do find a way to get vaccinated anonymously, I will be excluded because I won’t have a “passport”, because they won’t believe me if I honestly tell them I have been vaccinated. They won’t care, because I’m not in the database. So, it’s not about the vaccine, it is about the database.

I have a friend who is truly off the grid.   Well an acquaintance, but a nice guy.  Super nice guy.  Lives in the proverbially cabin in the mountains.  I met him in duathlons.  He is one fit hermit.  No electricity.  No credit cards transmitting his every purchase and position and time of purchase to big brother..  No cell phone in his pocket transmitting his position every 15 seconds to big brother.  He doesn't post every day many times to mooneyspace or any other forums from uniquely identified IP addresses to help big brother to find him.  He doesn't;t fly around in a Mooney or any other airplane with an adsb-out transmitting his position to big brother.  He is OFF the grid.  Last time I saw him maybe 3 or 4 years ago, me and another guy rode bikes past his house - I hadn't known where he was.   Big pile of wood in front of his nice little house - for winter heating.

I get it - I would rather big brother not know everything about me.  But it is my choice, to fly, to post here, to carry a cell phone and a credit card and a gas line to my house and water to my house, and on and on.  

If he said he wasn't getting the vaccine since he was worried about government tracking, I would still scratch my head, but I would get it.  At least its consistent.

You are not consistent.  Big brother knows you are in Santa Barbara, and which hotel you are at, and what restaurant you are at. Right now,  Because of your extensive electronic participation.  he knows where you were sitting when you posted this mooneyspace post that I am posting to.  But you think not getting the vaccine will deny something to the government?  This is just not consistent or logical. 

[jlunseth]

I feel bad for Don. He just wanted to talk about his great vacation in Hawaii.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

We beat those nasty diseases without shutting down the economy and locking ourselves into our houses, too. Everyone who was healthy (i.e., not currently sick) went on and lived their lives. Many are not being given that chance now, not because of science but because of politics. And the politicians shut down all discussion and most questions, because the Why's and Wherefores cannot be answered . . . .

That is wrong.  Plain wrong.  The reason you and I didn't need to worry about polio or small pox is because I (and probably you) and overwhelmingly almost everyone is vaccinated as a condition to enter into public school.  That is not politics.  Its numbers.

But you are confounding two different things.  Shut down the economy and get the vaccine are not the same thing.  Just get the vaccine.  whether or not the economy is specifically shut down there will be an impact to the economy if the pandemic continues into the future, due to hesitancy.

Polio had a different transmission vector.  We shut down all the pools in the 1950s and children were literally not allowed out to play with each other.

Some of the other diseases resulted in massive death counts.  Look up small pox.  

Look up Black Plague and tell us if it had an impact on the economy.

Continuing to see a disease through a politics lens is like seeing gravity through a politics lens.  I don't care what your politics are.  I want the economy to return to normal asap.  Vaccines for as many as possible seems to be the route of least resistance - except for all the resistance.

If a building its burning and the fire department comes and orders everyone out, and some people of a certain political persuasion dig their heels in and says the mean government is infringing on their rights, that doesn't make the fire department politics.  They know that if you don't get out, then they will need to go in and save you because once you start to burn you will cry and expect to be saved.  Sick people who don't believe in the pandemic are still going to the hospital when they get ill, and demanding to be treated, and our doctors are being asked to work over time to save their poor buts.  Sick people who don't believe in the pandemic, who say things like, "veryone who was healthy (i.e., not currently sick) went on and lived their lives." are getting sick and then getting other people sick, and so this stupid game of denial, selfish me-me-me its all about me screw you my right - until they get sick and cry at the hospital....the game continues and will continue.  I don't care what your position on any political issue is, or what mine is.  I am just looking forward to the end of this thing and we have the technology and the means.  Only now a certain fraction of people think they are playing political games.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, jlunseth said:

I feel bad for Don. He just wanted to talk about his great vacation in Hawaii.

I wish I were in Hawaii.  Its pretty!

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

I have a friend who is truly off the grid.   Well an acquaintance, but a nice guy.  Super nice guy.  Lives in the proverbially cabin in the mountains.  I met him in duathlons.  He is one fit hermit.  No electricity.  No credit cards transmitting his every purchase and position and time of purchase to big brother..  No cell phone in his pocket transmitting his position every 15 seconds to big brother.  He doesn't post every day many times to mooneyspace or any other forums from uniquely identified IP addresses to help big brother to find him.  He doesn't;t fly around in a Mooney or any other airplane with an adsb-out transmitting his position to big brother.  He is OFF the grid.  Last time I saw him maybe 3 or 4 years ago, me and another guy rode bikes past his house - I hadn't known where he was.   Big pile of wood in front of his nice little house - for winter heating.

I get it - I would rather big brother not know everything about me.  But it is my choice, to fly, to post here, to carry a cell phone and a credit card and a gas lime to my house and water to my house, and on and on.  

If he said her wasn't getting the vaccine since he was worried about government tracking, I would still scratch my head, but I would get it.  At least its consistent.

You are not consistent.  Big brother knows you are in Santa Barbara, and which hotel you are at, and what restaurant you are at. Right now,  Because of you extensive electronic participation.  he knows where you were sitting when you posted this mooneyspace post that I am posting to.  But you think not getting the vaccine will deny something to the government?  This is just not consistent or logical. 

It is (was) a free country, I get to choose which programs I wish to participate in. I canceled my LinkedIn in 2016 because of their politics. I haven’t been on Facebook in 7 years and would cancel my account, but they won’t let me unless I give them my cell phone number and they are the last outfit I want to have it.

When I signed in at the FBO, they asked if they had the correct phone number for me. They had my cell number from when I worked for Roche. I haven’t had that number for 11 years and I certainly didn’t give it to them. That number keeps turning up so my efforts to stay anonymous are somewhat effective.

The IT guy at work keeps putting apps on my computer that want to validate through my cell phone. I tell him he can’t use my cell phone. If it is a requirement of my employment to have a cell phone they better supply it and pay for it. Intel told me I couldn’t enter their factory unless I put an app on my phone for the COVID. I told them they don’t get to use my phone unless they pay for it, they found a paper form for me to sign.  

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It is (was) a free country, I get to choose which programs I wish to participate in. I canceled my LinkedIn in 2016 because of their politics. I haven’t been on Facebook in 7 years and would cancel my account, but they won’t let me unless I give them my cell phone number and they are the last outfit I want to have it.

When I signed in at the FBO, they asked if they had the correct phone number for me. They had my cell number from when I worked for Roche. I haven’t had that number for 11 years and I certainly didn’t give it to them. That number keeps turning up so my efforts to stay anonymous are somewhat effective.

The IT guy at work keeps putting apps on my computer that want to validate through my cell phone. I tell him he can’t use my cell phone. If it is a requirement of my employment to have a cell phone they better supply it and pay for it. Intel told me I couldn’t enter their factory unless I put an app on my phone for the COVID. I told them they don’t get to use my phone unless they pay for it, they found a paper form for me to sign.  

Until you dump your cell phone, your credit card, your adsb, and stop posting on mooneyspace, you are playing inconsistent games asserting that big brother is a reason to not get vaccinated.  Its inconsistent and an excuse that makes no sense.  Ii recommend tin foil hats which you can read on the internet make you immune to diseases and crazy thinking and big brother.

[Greg Ellis]

Hi Don.  Sorry this post has gotten off track a little.  I love Hawaii.  Been there about 6 times.  I think it is a beautiful place and I am jealous that you are there and I am here in my office listening to patients gripe about life.  Wish I were there.  Have a great time in Hawaii.  Post some photos please.  Let us live vicariously through you.

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

Until you dump your cell phone, your credit card, your adsb, and stop posting on mooneyspace, you are playing inconsistent games asserting that big brother is a reason to not get vaccinated.  Its inconsistent and an excuse that makes no sense.  Ii recommend tin foil hats which you can read on the internet make you immune to diseases and crazy thinking and big brother.

What you don’t get is I get to choose who I share my data with. 
 

Im not a fool, I’ve worked in the tech industry for 40 years. I pretty much know what they can do and can’t do. 
 

that being said, I have to jump in the shower so I can go work at the high tech company. And this afternoon I get to go to UCSB to play with some interplanetary communications device. They had to get special permission from the COVID czar to let me in.

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

What you don’t get is I get to choose who I share my data with. 

Only ... you don't.  If the FBI or the NSA or whoever big brother wants to find you, with your devices and credit cards active, how easy do you think it is?  A vaccine won't make it any easier that absurdly easy it already is.

7 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

that being said, I have to jump in the shower so I can go work at the high tech company. And this afternoon I get to go to UCSB to play with some interplanetary communications device. They had to get special permission from the COVID czar to let me in.

Well its good to have a great job - and someone needs to pay for the Mooney.  Bless us all here that we having some terrific training, terrific opportunities, and despite clearly differing views of the world.  We have the Mooneys interest together.  have a great day!

[Bentonck]

42 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

I feel bad for Don. He just wanted to talk about his great vacation in Hawaii.

I was thinking the exact same thing...hehehe...

Don, hope Hawaii is providing you with some relaxation, I'll avoid the rest of this mess.

[ilovecornfields]

10 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I'm not trying to debate, but asking an honest question. What I have read is that if a kid is healthy, not obese, underlying conditions, etc... the chances of a kid having a mild case are better than 99.97%. Compare that to the 80-95% chance of having a mild case if you have had the vaccine. If those are real numbers, then kids by virtue of the fact that they are kids, if they are healthy, already have a better chance of not getting COVID or if they do having a mild case of it than what the vaccines provide. Why stick a kid in the arm with an experimental vaccine that has no long term studies and has not been approved yet by the FDA when they already have better immunity than the vaccine can provide?

The push for herd immunity through the vaccines itself is a mixed message. The vaccines, from what has been reported, do not provide immunity. How does a society actually achieve herd immunity with a vaccine that only lessens the chance of a severe case but does not provide immunity? You can still get COVID after getting the vaccine and you can still spread it to others, all you have done is lower your own personal risk of having a severe case. Therefore, getting the vaccine really isn't about protecting others, it is about protecting yourself, which is fine and good.

The bottom line is that there is still a lot to be learned about not only the disease, including long term effects of contracting it, but also about the vaccines, how long do they last, and if there are long term side effects from the vaccines. Those are questions that I don't think anything but time will fully answer.

Good questions, but I’m not sure where you’re getting your information.

The vaccines DO provide immunity. Better than actually getting COVID, but immunity isn’t a binary thing. People have different responses, different immune systems and different physiology. If you get the vaccine, there’s a 90-95% chance you won’t get COVID compared to being unvaccinated. It’s not 100% but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.how many things do you know that are 100% effective?

In the Pfizer trial from age 12-16 it did seem to be 100% effective in children. The true value is probably closer to 95% due to the margin of error, but that’s still pretty darn good.

You need to vaccinate kids not only because some get sick and die but also because they spread the disease if they are unvaccinated. Every time someone gets infected they will likely pass it on to someone else and it gives the virus a chance to mutate. If you only vaccinate the adults, then the virus won’t ever go away (it becomes endemic like the flu) and eventually will mutate in a way where it becomes more efficient at spreading or invading immune response.

If you still have questions send me a PM. I am curious where you’re getting the information from because it IS about protecting others as well as protecting yourself and the mRNA vaccines are over 90% effective at doing so. It seems like there’s a lot of misinformation being put out there, some probably intentionally. I’m happy to help try and correct this — unless you’re one of those people that has an irrational fear of certain “databases” but not others. That, I can’t help with.

With such a nasty disease where now millions have died and many more are still suffering long term effects , I don’t get why people are afraid of the “long term” efffects of the vaccine. It’s mRNA that makes a spike protein and goes away after a few days + a lipid. That pretty much it. We’re starting to learn about the short and long term effects of COVID and they’re pretty awful. I’ve never seen someone with any delayed effects from the mRNA vaccine but hundreds of post-COVID people with myriad issues. I think being afraid of the “long term effects” of these vaccines is a completely irrational when the alternative is known to be pretty bad.

[N201MKTurbo]

5 minutes ago, Bentonck said:

I was thinking the exact same thing...hehehe...

Don, hope Hawaii is providing you with some relaxation, I'll avoid the rest of this mess.

So we have:

LOP

Touch and goes

Takeoff flaps

COVID

Politics in general

Did I forget anything?

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

We beat those nasty diseases without shutting down the economy and locking ourselves into our houses, too. Everyone who was healthy (i.e., not currently sick) went on and lived their lives. Many are not being given that chance now, not because of science but because of politics. And the politicians shut down all discussion and most questions, because the Why's and Wherefores cannot be answered . . . .

Given your vast knowledge of infectious diseases and epidemiology are you suggesting that the response to an outbreak with fecal-oral transmission should be the same as one with respiratory spread? You couldn’t cough polio into a room and infect everyone...

[PeteMc]

11 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’m not afraid of the needle, I’m afraid of the database. I still haven’t figured out how to get vaccinated anonymously.

I have some relatives, friends and a acquaintances that used to try and stay anonymous.  So I'm just curious if you really think it's working?  Not trying to be argumentative or judging, just curious why you think you are anonymous and more the fact that you'd take the risk by not taking the vaccine because of it?

I'd question (okay, sometimes rag on them over a beer) if they really thought they were anonymous...  Some still think they are, others have stopped trying due to the reality-of-things (yea, I'm coining IOT).  My usual questions if they thought it worked was to ask if they paid taxes, worked for a company or were paid by companies, had bank accounts, had/used credit/debit cards, had any kind of EZPass or sticker on their car, owned a car, etc., etc., etc.  Oh... And do you post in public forums?...  If I looked you up in one of my search accounts would I find all the addresses you've lived at?...

This is usually when the reality sunk in.

I'm not opposed to your trying to stay anonymous and wouldn't mind it myself.  But unless you're off the grid, which would mean you couldn't be here, I contend that as much as you'd like to be, you're really not anonymous.  And "big brother" is not so much the Gov. as it is Big Business trying to customize ads for you.  (Luckily they make browsers and VPNs to help with that...)

So I'd say go for the vaccine.  They already know who you are, so stir the pot a bit and do something "they" are not expecting you to do! 

 

 

[ragedracer1977]

7 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

If you're already providing your conclusions, that's not an honest question, is it?  

• Your premise is incorrect--you failed to include the probability of getting infected in the first place.  Indeed, your perspective is solely based on what happens after getting infected, but your chances of getting infected are profoundly affected by whether your vaccinated or not.
• You also miss the larger context that without vaccination, children would remain a massive reservoir for the virus to remain active in, even if children are less at risk of death.  I said earlier that I speculate the South African and UK variants are actually all from the US, since the chance of mutations is proportional to the total virus population, and the US has had by far the largest virus population in the world so far.  Having a reservoir like that is just asking for more infectious variants that can overcome the targeted vaccine immunity, or, worse yet, that produces increased mortality in your children.
• Herd immunity has nothing to do with protecting individuals, it's about getting the infection rate to decrease rather than increase.  You don't need full immunity to reduce transmission rate.  It doesn't require full "immunity"--you can reach that threshold with partial immunity, it just takes a larger percentage.  Any premise that requires "full immunity" is specious.  In the case of the COVID vaccines, they generally have appeared to overperform compared to our historical vaccines (to my surprise).
• On the other hand, every immune or partially immune person does lower the risk of infection to the vulnerable people.  That protection increases with every immune person--it's not like people with cancer who can't get the vaccine are finally safe when herd immunity is reached--there risk gets lower and lower as more people get immune, although that effect does become larger faster.
• Your bottom line is an argument by false dichotomy.  All those topics are unknown to varying degrees, but you place them (and all other topics) in the same category.  

 

I guess you believe these numbers from China....

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

I have some relatives, friends and a acquaintances that used to try and stay anonymous.  So I'm just curious if you really think it's working?  Not trying to be argumentative or judging, just curious why you think you are anonymous and more the fact that you'd take the risk by not taking the vaccine because of it?

I'd question (okay, sometimes rag on them over a beer) if they really thought they were anonymous...  Some still think they are, others have stopped trying due to the reality-of-things (yea, I'm coining IOT).  My usual questions if they thought it worked was to ask if they paid taxes, worked for a company or were paid by companies, had bank accounts, had/used credit/debit cards, had any kind of EZPass or sticker on their car, owned a car, etc., etc., etc.  Oh... And do you post in public forums?...  If I looked you up in one of my search accounts would I find all the addresses you've lived at?...

This is usually when the reality sunk in.

I'm not opposed to your trying to stay anonymous and wouldn't mind it myself.  But unless you're off the grid, which would mean you couldn't be here, I contend that as much as you'd like to be, you're really not anonymous.  And "big brother" is not so much the Gov. as it is Big Business trying to customize ads for you.  (Luckily they make browsers and VPNs to help with that...)

So I'd say go for the vaccine.  They already know who you are, so stir the pot a bit and do something "they" are not expecting you to do! 

 

 

I always wonder why some people find it important to change my way of thinking. 
 

Cant I have a different point of view? Just think how boring the world would be if we all agreed on everything.

[aviatoreb]

12 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I always wonder why some people find it important to change my way of thinking. 
 

Cant I have a different point of view? Just think how boring the world would be if we all agreed on everything.

It's called a conversation.

You say something.   Then one of us says something.  Sometimes we might not be in harmony in what we say.  Does that mean that I should be worried why you find it important to change my way of thinking?  Cant I have a different point of view than you without you being worried if my opinion matches yours lest I am infringing on your right to your double think?

[ilovecornfields]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

He's been doing this at least since COVID began, sorting everyone and everything into two groups:

1. Me, my ideas and all right-thinking people who agree with me
2. Everyone else, those poor, misguided souls

Just like the liberal establishment, there is no room for disagreement, therefore discussion is unnecessary. Agree or go away. 

Did you actually read his response? I think he pretty clearly explained why he was making those statements and backed them up with logical scientific reasoning (and did a better job than I did).
 

Is this maybe a case of “my opinion are just as good as your facts?” Since he’s a physician, it seems like he might know more about this subject that your average person so there’s a better chance that what he’s saying is correct.

If your septic system explodes, do you call plumber or electrician for advice? When your car breaks down do you take it to the veterinarian? Do you have your annuals done by a proctologist? 

Experts aren’t right all the time and in some areas “experts” often don’t do much better than others, but I think when it comes to healthcare and in the examples I gave above, there definitely is an advantage to being an “expert.” There is something to be said for actually having some knowledge regarding what you’re talking about that wasn’t acquired solely from the internet. 

I think @jaylw314and I are both guilty of not having the friendliest response to some of the comments here, but if you saw a bunch of people unnecessarily dying and false information being spread for political purposes that was getting them and other killed you might get frustrated, too. We’re still human, you know.

[ilovecornfields]

17 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I always wonder why some people find it important to change my way of thinking. 
 

Cant I have a different point of view? Just think how boring the world would be if we all agreed on everything.

I think these conversations would have gone very differently over a few beers than they have been going over the interwebs.

You are absolutely allowed to have your opinions and I’ll be more than happy to tell you why you’re wrong. ;-) 

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

If your septic system explodes, do you call plumber or electrician for advice? When your car breaks down do you take it to the veterinarian? Do you have your annuals done by a proctologist? 

 

You know what - that is a great idea!  Maybe it would be cheaper that way.  Do you know a good proctologist who can do my annual for N314EB which comes due in June I would appreciate the referral.