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Traveling in a Covid World


donkaye

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We're looking forward to doing more flying trips this year after most were cancelled last year due to Covid.

Our first one of the year (a non Mooney one) is our yearly trip out to the Big Island of Hawaii.  We delayed it by several months until we had been fully vaccinated.

Hawaii does not make it easy for you to travel there.  You have to go through a whole bunch of hoops, the last of which is a negative Covid test from an approved source within 72 hours of departure.  After spending a lot of money on both Airfare and Housing, we were kept on pins and needles waiting to see it the test results would come back before we were to leave.  If they didn't, it would not be worth going, since you would need to be quarantined for 10 days.  Full vaccination did not alleviated that requirement.  Thankfully our results came back near the end of the 72 hour time frame.

After doing some research, I decided to buy the Bose 700 headphones for the trip, since my A20's have been troublesome to carry on commercial flights.  Surprise!  No inflight movies, even in 1st Class.  I guess that makes sense, since the airlines don't want to spend the money to have to sanitize them after every use.  Also, no more inflight magazines.  Luckily, I had some music on the iPad to while away the hours.  BTW the Boses 700 were excellent and very comfortable to wear on at least a 5 ½ hour flight.

Having done all the above, the arrival procedure to clear the airport required a temperature check by National Guard personnel, and additional checks including another potential quick Covid test.  Alaska Airlines has a pre check procedure which we signed up for that was supposed to cut through the red tape.  Although we weren't told having your vaccination card would be useful, we had brought it along anyway.

After we deplaned, we were led to the temperature check.  At that point people were separated into various lines: the pre check line and the non precheck line.  Then there was an additional separation: those who could present their vaccination cards could immediately leave the airport and those that did not needed further screening.  Luckily, we had our cards and were allowed to go.  For us the whole process was simple, as easy as pre Covid.  For those who didn't take the time to understand what was to be required, it was a long delay in getting out of the airport.

Why have the above discussion?  We went into Kona, to buy Sunglasses that Shirley forgot to bring and eat at one of our favorite restaurants.  It had closed.  We went to our second favorite restaurant and it, too, had closed.  The whole town reminded me of a trip we took during the downturn of 2008.  Many vacant stores.  With all the store closing it was not surprising, Costo had plenty of traffic.

We drove up to the place we were saying and went to a little center where there had previously been a number of restaurants.  They were all closed.  There were lots of empty store fronts.

So, it looks like Hawaii isn't doing so well under Covid.  On the plus side for us there aren't many people around, the Island is one of our most favorite places in the world, and we intend to have a great time for the week that we'll be here.

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Hi Don,

The post-COVID world is definitely going to be different than the pre-COVID world. Hopefully some of those changes will be better, but change is certainly uncomfortable.

I haven’t really traveled anywhere (except in the Mooney). We haven’t taken any vacations or gone inside restaurants to eat or done any of those other activities the “normalcy seekers” are up to these days.

It’s not that we can’t, it just isn’t the same. I’d rather postpone those activities until I can enjoy them then pretend there’s some sort of “normalcy” and convince myself that I’m enjoying some watered-down version of an activity I’d normally enjoy.

Vaccines are great, but if people don’t get them they don’t work and this never ends. Just read this week that we’ll probably won’t achieve herd immunity because of all the people refusing to get the vaccine so some version of COVID will probably be around for the rest of our lives. That’s a depressing thought.

When this stated my wife and I talked about how being in the medical field we’re used to being miserable but pushing through because that’s what we have to do, so this hasn’t been as hard on us as it has been for others. It sounds like this is going to be a permanent change so we’ll just have to adjust to the “new normal.”

I guess even a watered-down Hawaii vacation is better than where I am right now which is vaccination site set up for 5,000 shots/day with only 30 people so far. To me, that’s even more depressing.

Hope you enjoy your well deserved vacation!

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Come visit Arizona. It's essentially 100% back to normal here.  I think most people have decided the minimal risk to their lives isn't worth hiding anymore. 

I'm not looking to argue whether they're right or wrong, it's just the reality of the situation.

And, I think, people aren't really getting vaccinated, because they think 'what's the point'.  You can't do anything you couldn't do before you got vaccinated. Still have to wear a mask. Still have to social distance.  

I don't think more than 50% +/- of the population was ever going to get vaccinated. 

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I have traveled a bit lately, here are my observations:

Chicago was pretty much closed down.

Missouri was like “what is covid?”

Texas was fully open.

Portland OR, was mask crazy you couldn’t do anything.

Santa Barbara, everybody is pretending to do the covid thing, but for all intents everything is open.

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25 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

And, I think, people aren't really getting vaccinated, because they think 'what's the point'.  You can't do anything you couldn't do before you got vaccinated. Still have to wear a mask. Still have to social distance.  

Well; you could not get COVID. That’s something.

I think it’s ridiculous to base a vaccination decision on what someone else tells you you can or can’t do afterwards. You should base a vaccination decision on protecting your health and the health of others

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Around here, the status varies tremendously from one county to another. Where I work, I can eat in any restaurant except those national chains whose HQ says no, like Chick Fil A (drive thru only). The next county over, I've only found two I can enter--Burger King and a small Mexican joint.

Our state's mask mandate has expired, occupancy limits are 80% and about to go away. But each business can set their own rules. Most buffets have disposable gloves to wear while serving, and the food out is reduced (about half at my favorite Chinese place :( ). "Almost normal" is almost nice, but masks and closures are the only change I've experienced since I work in medical manufacturing. No days off, just two days working from home totalling 25 hours, no extra government benefits and so far just one stimulus check.

I feel sorry for my friends here who've been living in the hell of blue state lock downs for the past year plus . . . . .

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19 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

Well; you could not get COVID. That’s something.

I think it’s ridiculous to base a vaccination decision on what someone else tells you you can or can’t do afterwards. You should base a vaccination decision on protecting your health and the health of others

I'd agree with you, but the powers that be keep saying you can still get covid, it might just not be as bad. 

There's a message problem.  On top of the message problem, there's another percentage that won't get vaccinated no matter what. 

At this point, with demand for vaccinations dropping like a rock, it's time to just let it go. The people that want to, have. The people that don't, haven't. It's not our job to run their lives.

If it was, we'd have long ago outlawed cigarettes, alcohol, fast food, etc etc. We haven't, because it's not about health, it's about money. Much like the continued lock downs.

For the record, I got vaccinated.  

 

Edited by ragedracer1977
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19 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I'd agree with you, but the powers that be keep saying you can still get covid, it might just not be as bad. 

There's a message problem.  On top of the message problem, there's another percentage that won't get vaccinated no matter what. 

At this point, with demand for vaccinations dropping like a rock, it's time to just let it go. The people that want to, have. The people that don't, haven't. It's not our job to run their lives.

If it was, we'd have long ago outlawed cigarettes, alcohol, fast food, etc etc. We haven't, because it's not about health, it's about money. Much like the continued lock downs.

For the record, I got vaccinated.  

 

I actually agree with almost everything you said except I don’t think it’s time to give up on vaccines until kids have an opportunity to get them.

You are correct- you can still get COVID if you get the vaccine although your risk of getting it is much lower and so is your risk of getting hospitalized or dying if you do get it despite being vaccinated.

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3 hours ago, donkaye said:

We're looking forward to doing more flying trips this year after most were cancelled last year due to Covid.

Our first one of the year (a non Mooney one) is our yearly trip out to the Big Island of Hawaii.  We delayed it by several months until we had been fully vaccinated.

Hawaii does not make it easy for you to travel there.  You have to go through a whole bunch of hoops, the last of which is a negative Covid test from an approved source within 72 hours of departure.  After spending a lot of money on both Airfare and Housing, we were kept on pins and needles waiting to see it the test results would come back before we were to leave.  If they didn't, it would not be worth going, since you would need to be quarantined for 10 days.  Full vaccination did not alleviated that requirement.  Thankfully our results came back near the end of the 72 hour time frame.

After doing some research, I decided to buy the Bose 700 headphones for the trip, since my A20's have been troublesome to carry on commercial flights.  Surprise!  No inflight movies, even in 1st Class.  I guess that makes sense, since the airlines don't want to spend the money to have to sanitize them after every use.  Also, no more inflight magazines.  Luckily, I had some music on the iPad to while away the hours.  BTW the Boses 700 were excellent and very comfortable to wear on at least a 5 ½ hour flight.

Having done all the above, the arrival procedure to clear the airport required a temperature check by National Guard personnel, and additional checks including another potential quick Covid test.  Alaska Airlines has a pre check procedure which we signed up for that was supposed to cut through the red tape.  Although we weren't told having your vaccination card would be useful, we had brought it along anyway.

After we deplaned, we were led to the temperature check.  At that point people were separated into various lines: the pre check line and the non precheck line.  Then there was an additional separation: those who could present their vaccination cards could immediately leave the airport and those that did not needed further screening.  Luckily, we had our cards and were allowed to go.  For us the whole process was simple, as easy as pre Covid.  For those who didn't take the time to understand what was to be required, it was a long delay in getting out of the airport.

Why have the above discussion?  We went into Kona, to buy Sunglasses that Shirley forgot to bring and eat at one of our favorite restaurants.  It had closed.  We went to our second favorite restaurant and it, too, had closed.  The whole town reminded me of a trip we took during the downturn of 2008.  Many vacant stores.  With all the store closing it was not surprising, Costo had plenty of traffic.

We drove up to the place we were saying and went to a little center where there had previously been a number of restaurants.  They were all closed.  There were lots of empty store fronts.

So, it looks like Hawaii isn't doing so well under Covid.  On the plus side for us there aren't many people around, the Island is one of our most favorite places in the world, and we intend to have a great time for the week that we'll be here.

The irony is that I had a couple different co-workers go to Maui last month, and they both said it was absolutely bonkers crowded and busy there.  That's interesting your experience on the big island sounded so different.

Sadly, last I was in Maui 3 years ago, I was stunned at the amount of coral reef bleaching--we didn't find any sign of living coral there, and we had last been there about 4 years before that.  I heard during the COVID travel restrictions, the local flora and fauna made significant comebacks, we'll see if those recoveries can be sustained now. 

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19 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

The irony is that I had a couple different co-workers go to Maui last month, and they both said it was absolutely bonkers crowded and busy there.  That's interesting your experience on the big island sounded so different.

Sadly, last I was in Maui 3 years ago, I was stunned at the amount of coral reef bleaching--we didn't find any sign of living coral there, and we had last been there about 4 years before that.  I heard during the COVID travel restrictions, the local flora and fauna made significant comebacks, we'll see if those recoveries can be sustained now. 

Sun screen poisoning.....

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There was a piece in the news about ten days ago. In the US, of 75 million vaccinated, 5,800 got Covid, and of those, some 400 required hospitalization.  That is a rate of 0.008%. About 7% of those who are vaccinated and still get Covid require hospitalization. That is 0.0005% of those who are vaccinated. That is from the CDC. https://www.businessinsider.com/infected-after-covid-vaccination-cdc-numbers-breakthrough-infections-2021-4 When I was in elementary school they marched us all into the gym and gave us vaccinations for polio. Nobody in my school got sick from the vaccine and nobody got polio either, although later in life I met a few people who got it before the vaccine came out. 

So yeah, “you can still get it.” It is possible. It is also possible you will find a ride to Mars in your lifetime.

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1 minute ago, jlunseth said:

There was a piece in the news about ten days ago. In the US, of 75 million vaccinated, 5,800 got Covid, and of those, some 400 required hospitalization.  That is a rate of 0.008%. About 7% of those who are vaccinated and still get Covid require hospitalization. That is 0.0005% of those who are vaccinated. That is from the CDC. https://www.businessinsider.com/infected-after-covid-vaccination-cdc-numbers-breakthrough-infections-2021-4 When I was in elementary school they marched us all into the gym and gave us vaccinations for polio. Nobody in my school got sick from the vaccine and nobody got polio either, although later in life I met a few people who got it before the vaccine came out. 

So yeah, “you can still get it.” It is possible. It is also possible you will find a ride to Mars in your lifetime.

But - The Mars mission will require the vaccine.

I don't get why people are afraid of the needle.  But they are.  Its a fact.  Because of it, it was said rightly above, there will be an endemic covid condition for the rest of our lives.  This will not be good for economy or for the public health.  But for individuals, it is a no brainer to go get your free vaccine.  If we can't save all the people who refuse, then at least save ourselves.

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19 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

But - The Mars mission will require the vaccine.

I don't get why people are afraid of the needle.  But they are.  Its a fact.  Because of it, it was said rightly above, there will be an endemic covid condition for the rest of our lives.  This will not be good for economy or for the public health.  But for individuals, it is a no brainer to go get your free vaccine.  If we can't save all the people who refuse, then at least save ourselves.

I’m not afraid of the needle, I’m afraid of the database. I still haven’t figured out how to get vaccinated anonymously. How do the homeless people do it? Maybe I should go down to the riverbed and ask around?  
 

It isn’t about getting vaccinated, it’s about getting in the system. If I do find a way to get vaccinated anonymously, I will be excluded because I won’t have a “passport”, because they won’t believe me if I honestly tell them I have been vaccinated. They won’t care, because I’m not in the database. So, it’s not about the vaccine, it is about the database.

Edited by N201MKTurbo
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1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

I actually agree with almost everything you said except I don’t think it’s time to give up on vaccines until kids have an opportunity to get them.

You are correct- you can still get COVID if you get the vaccine although your risk of getting it is much lower and so is your risk of getting hospitalized or dying if you do get it despite being vaccinated.

I'm not trying to debate, but asking an honest question. What I have read is that if a kid is healthy, not obese, underlying conditions, etc... the chances of a kid having a mild case are better than 99.97%. Compare that to the 80-95% chance of having a mild case if you have had the vaccine. If those are real numbers, then kids by virtue of the fact that they are kids, if they are healthy, already have a better chance of not getting COVID or if they do having a mild case of it than what the vaccines provide. Why stick a kid in the arm with an experimental vaccine that has no long term studies and has not been approved yet by the FDA when they already have better immunity than the vaccine can provide?

The push for herd immunity through the vaccines itself is a mixed message. The vaccines, from what has been reported, do not provide immunity. How does a society actually achieve herd immunity with a vaccine that only lessens the chance of a severe case but does not provide immunity? You can still get COVID after getting the vaccine and you can still spread it to others, all you have done is lower your own personal risk of having a severe case. Therefore, getting the vaccine really isn't about protecting others, it is about protecting yourself, which is fine and good.

The bottom line is that there is still a lot to be learned about not only the disease, including long term effects of contracting it, but also about the vaccines, how long do they last, and if there are long term side effects from the vaccines. Those are questions that I don't think anything but time will fully answer.

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3 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I'm not trying to debate, but asking an honest question. What I have read is that if a kid is healthy, not obese, underlying conditions, etc... the chances of a kid having a mild case are better than 99.97%. Compare that to the 80-95% chance of having a mild case if you have had the vaccine. If those are real numbers, then kids by virtue of the fact that they are kids, if they are healthy, already have a better chance of not getting COVID or if they do having a mild case of it than what the vaccines provide. Why stick a kid in the arm with an experimental vaccine that has no long term studies and has not been approved yet by the FDA when they already have better immunity than the vaccine can provide?

The push for herd immunity through the vaccines itself is a mixed message. The vaccines, from what has been reported, do not provide immunity. How does a society actually achieve herd immunity with a vaccine that only lessens the chance of a severe case but does not provide immunity? You can still get COVID after getting the vaccine and you can still spread it to others, all you have done is lower your own personal risk of having a severe case. Therefore, getting the vaccine really isn't about protecting others, it is about protecting yourself, which is fine and good.

The bottom line is that there is still a lot to be learned about not only the disease, including long term effects of contracting it, but also about the vaccines, how long do they last, and if there are long term side effects from the vaccines. Those are questions that I don't think anything but time will fully answer.

It’s not about the vaccine it’s about compliance. You will either submit to the supreme leader, or you will be shunned. 

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The wife wanted to go to Palm Springs last week. I said I’m not wasting our money going to some COVID crazy place. I suggested the Parker strip. She agreed an$ we had a great time.

I will continue to boycott any place with stupid COVID restrictions.

 

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21 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’m not afraid of the needle, I’m afraid of the database. I still haven’t figured out how to get vaccinated anonymously. How do the homeless people do it? Maybe I should go down to the riverbed and ask around?  
 

It isn’t about getting vaccinated, it’s about getting in the system. If I do find a way to get vaccinated anonymously, I will be excluded because I won’t have a “passport”, because they won’t believe me if I honestly tell them I have been vaccinated. They won’t care, because I’m not in the database. So, it’s not about the vaccine, it is about the database.

RIch, I hate to tell you this, but you have an ATP, an AMEL, a Commercial ASEL, an A&P and an IA. You are definitely in a number of databases, already. It's too late. The end must certainly be near.

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Just now, Flash said:

RIch, I hate to tell you this, but you have an ATP, an AMEL, a Commercial ASEL, an A&P and an IA. You are definitely in a number of databases, already. It's too late. The end must certainly be near.

I chose to be and am proud to be in those databases. The COVID people can go suck eggs.

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Just now, Skates97 said:

I told you it wouldn't be as bad as you were anticipating.

My hotel is abut 100 yards from this place. I met a guy in the hot tub who invited me to dinner with him and his daughter at a place up State Street.  I hung out there for about 45 min, but they never showed up. Probably the daughter...

It is Cinco de Mayo this place is crazy. Long lines everywhere I’m glad I got a seat at this place. I’m going back to my room and watch old movies.

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2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I chose to be and am proud to be in those databases. The COVID people can go suck eggs.

You screwed up then.  The fact that you're signed in here means you're in a database.  See those ads at the bottom of the screen?

In the first few weeks, when we were scrambling to get vaccines done, the nurses at clinics weren't keeping track of ANYTHING.  They just scribbled my name on card with the date and lot number and pushed me out the door (after 15 minutes of observation).  Nowadays it seems like clinics connecting the visits to health insurance for liability reasons, although there doesn't end up being any charge to the person.  I'm not sure if they do that at other sites, like pharmacies and mass vaccination sites.

I'm sad that you think health care practitioners have the time and motivation to want to track you.  I'm fearful that when you have a bona fide medical emergency that you will avoid going to an ER because you would end up being monitored in government database so that it can be used against you in the future.

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Sun screen poisoning.....

By the time we were there, it sounds like they'd banned PABA based sunscreen for a while, but things still looked pretty terrible.  I never really looked into the science as to whether this was likely to be the major factor or not, but if it's true things bounced back rapidly after travel stopped, that would imply it was a red herring.  I hope it was just the sun screen thing, at least that would be a simple fix, but I have a sad suspicion it's just the overall environmental impact of so many people.

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I returned just last night from Kona. My wife and I are now vaccinated. My mother (on the big island) is, and our young daughter of course not. It was first airline flight since the pandemic, working or not. Similar experience as you in traveling.

My observations of the islands are a bit different. With our daughter not vaccinated we are still not dining out. Takeout only and saw good traffic and great food at the places we went to for lunch. Cooked our own breakfast & dinner. Some nights with my mother, some nights in a condo in a tourist area. Walked past one of the big hotels at night, looked like low occupancy based on the lights on in the various rooms.

But the 'local' spots..... places to swim, the hiking trailheads, the places to eat local food, the beaches, all hopping as busy as I've ever seen them before.... No, busier. And frankly it was easy to forget there was a pandemic.

I think its very much 'your mileage may vary' depending a person's particular interests.

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3 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I'm not trying to debate, but asking an honest question. What I have read is that if a kid is healthy, not obese, underlying conditions, etc... the chances of a kid having a mild case are better than 99.97%. Compare that to the 80-95% chance of having a mild case if you have had the vaccine. If those are real numbers, then kids by virtue of the fact that they are kids, if they are healthy, already have a better chance of not getting COVID or if they do having a mild case of it than what the vaccines provide. Why stick a kid in the arm with an experimental vaccine that has no long term studies and has not been approved yet by the FDA when they already have better immunity than the vaccine can provide?

The push for herd immunity through the vaccines itself is a mixed message. The vaccines, from what has been reported, do not provide immunity. How does a society actually achieve herd immunity with a vaccine that only lessens the chance of a severe case but does not provide immunity? You can still get COVID after getting the vaccine and you can still spread it to others, all you have done is lower your own personal risk of having a severe case. Therefore, getting the vaccine really isn't about protecting others, it is about protecting yourself, which is fine and good.

The bottom line is that there is still a lot to be learned about not only the disease, including long term effects of contracting it, but also about the vaccines, how long do they last, and if there are long term side effects from the vaccines. Those are questions that I don't think anything but time will fully answer.

If you're already providing your conclusions, that's not an honest question, is it? :) 

  • Your premise is incorrect--you failed to include the probability of getting infected in the first place.  Indeed, your perspective is solely based on what happens after getting infected, but your chances of getting infected are profoundly affected by whether your vaccinated or not.
  • You also miss the larger context that without vaccination, children would remain a massive reservoir for the virus to remain active in, even if children are less at risk of death.  I said earlier that I speculate the South African and UK variants are actually all from the US, since the chance of mutations is proportional to the total virus population, and the US has had by far the largest virus population in the world so far.  Having a reservoir like that is just asking for more infectious variants that can overcome the targeted vaccine immunity, or, worse yet, that produces increased mortality in your children.
  • Herd immunity has nothing to do with protecting individuals, it's about getting the infection rate to decrease rather than increase.  You don't need full immunity to reduce transmission rate.  It doesn't require full "immunity"--you can reach that threshold with partial immunity, it just takes a larger percentage.  Any premise that requires "full immunity" is specious.  In the case of the COVID vaccines, they generally have appeared to overperform compared to our historical vaccines (to my surprise).
  • On the other hand, every immune or partially immune person does lower the risk of infection to the vulnerable people.  That protection increases with every immune person--it's not like people with cancer who can't get the vaccine are finally safe when herd immunity is reached--there risk gets lower and lower as more people get immune, although that effect does become larger faster.
  • Your bottom line is an argument by false dichotomy.  All those topics are unknown to varying degrees, but you place them (and all other topics) in the same category.  

 

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