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GPS recommendations for '79 M20k with original radios


warrenn

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Hello,

I own a 1979 Mooney 231 which I bought 30 years ago and have been using the original radios: KNS80 for Nav and KY-197, KX-170 for com. I do a lot of IFR flying and  realized both that these old radios are starting to fail (my KY-197 transmitter just started having garbled transmit audio and the KNS-80 is a little intermittent) and that without GPS my approach choices are getting limited. Can someone give me some guidance for a moderate level GPS system to replace my old radios?

Frankly, I am not a fan of Garmin (for a number of reasons) or of touch displays in the cockpit. The user interface is very important - I need something which is well-designed and easy to use.  I already have a Stratus ESGi ADS-B transponder.

Any suggestions welcome. I am willing to spend a reasonable amount of money (~$50 k) for a decent system.

Thanks in advance.

Warren Nagourney

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Well, the good new is your choices are limited to two.  The bad new is you aren't interested in one of them.  So, your choices are limited to one, Avidyne.  Since I'm a Garmin guy all the way and I haven't had any students who have an Avidyne unit, you'll have to get information on them from others this forum.  Those others really like Avidyne.

OK, enough of the sarcasm.  The user interfaces on the two types of units are completely different.  Personally, I like that of Garmin, which is now uniform across all of their platforms.  Like Avidyne, almost all functions can be performed with the knob in addition to the touch screen.  If you ever planned on upgrading your autopilot, multiple step-down VNAV can only be done with the GTN series of navigators.  I'd get the manuals for both devices and read through them both in addition to watching the many videos out there describing their use.

A benefit of going with one manufacturer is that all their units talk nicely to one another.  Often trying to put a system together with multiple manufactures leads to interface headaches.

Before I did my upgrade, I spent a month investigating the market, reading manuals and deciding what I wanted to accomplish with the upgrade.  Seven years later I'm very happy with the result.

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When Big G is out...
 

Become familiar with...

  • Avidyne for great nav/com/gps
  • PSEngineering for great audio panels
  • Dynon for awesome Graphical interfaces... wide screen TV style... displays
  • EI or Electronics International... modern engine monitors...
  • Aspen... All the data you want in a small screen or two, or three...

If you don’t like Big G,  Stec won’t be in your wheelhouse either...

BK is having challenges getting new products to market... 

JPI is similar to Big G in the customer serve arena....


The question is so good, we posted it twice... :)

Best regards,

-a-

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I also get frustrated with Garmin, but when it comes to modern Avionics, ruling out Garmin really puts you in a box.

$50K should be an adequate budget, but can you be more specific about your goals?  Do you want to go to an all glass cockpit?  Do you want to use something like a G5 or AV30 while you’re putting this together or would you rather stay with steam guages?

Posting a picture of your existing panel might be a good way to move the discussion forward constructively.

I have a Stratus ESG in one of my planes and love it.  That said, it does not provide traffic and weather to a navigator as does the Garmin 345.

If you could hold your nose and buy Garmin, their stuff plays together well.  Putting together a /G panel with the goal of avoiding Garmin products altogether definitely makes for a more difficult project when it comes to architecting it.

Also Warren, what part of the country are you located in?

 

 

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Garmin definitely has integration down to a science, but either GPS will move your plane light years ahead of where it is now.  I have a 430W and plane to go with Avidyne when the time comes since it's a simple swap.  Starting from scratch, I'd prob go Garmin.

 

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A vote here for Avidyne. I've been using the IFD540 in my M20K for several years now. And while I'm not a CFI, I do get to fly a wide variety of Mooneys. The interfaces and workflows are quite different between the Garmin and the Avidyne navigators. And of course, you'll get use to which ever one you have. But every time I fly with someone who has a GTN navigator, I appreciate my Avidyne even more. 

I recently flew as a safety pilot for @ReconMax. He's got arguably the nicest late model M20J flying with a GTN 750/650 stack. He's as quick on the GTN interface as anyone I've seen. And was flying through the pages almost without looking at the screen. He certainly made it look easy. But I couldn't help but notice that so many actions that took 3 or 4 clicks on the GTN, only take 1 click on my IFD. 

Everyone knows that touch screens are miserable to use in any kind of rough air. And while it's true that you can do ALMOST everything on the GTN using the single knob, it adds even more steps to each task. The buttons on the IFD mean that for each task, there is a touch screen option and a button driven option and both are equally direct with the same number of steps or clicks. Avidyne says that nothing you do on the navigator in flight, should take more than two clicks or steps. 

Someday I'll get around to upgrading my Mooney to the GFC500 autopilot, and by then, Avidyne will have likely cracked the Garmin code and include the VNAV functionality. But if not, I'll take the IFD interface over the GTN in spite of that function. 

Just my $0.02 on the subject.

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Thanks for the replies and sorry for the double posting. I don't know what happened.

I can probably consider Garmin (though I don't like the company) if I can find a unit which allows most of the operations to be done with the buttons. Touch operations in turbulence is a problem (from my experience using my iPads with WingX and Foreflight).  

It will be a long search so this is just the beginning. Thanks again for your inputs. (I am completely ignorant about IFR-certified GPS and need to get up to speed).

wn

 

 

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On 4/15/2021 at 11:52 AM, warrenn said:

Thanks for the replies and sorry for the double posting. I don't know what happened.

I can probably consider Garmin (though I don't like the company) if I can find a unit which allows most of the operations to be done with the buttons. Touch operations in turbulence is a problem (from my experience using my iPads with WingX and Foreflight).  

It will be a long search so this is just the beginning. Thanks again for your inputs. (I am completely ignorant about IFR-certified GPS and need to get up to speed).

wn

 

 

Almost all operations on the GTN series of GPS can be done with touch or buttons.  However, even in turbulence, with the ledges provided, I've never had an issue of not being able to do what I wanted to do.  Surprisingly, one of the best features of the GTN is the VFR approaches provided to almost every airport and every runway, front and back, with the option of coupling both laterally and vertically to an autopilot, Garmin or 3rd party.  So far, at least once a year Garmin updates their units with new features.   Whether you love them or hate them, they provide really good products.

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19 hours ago, warrenn said:

It will be a long search so this is just the beginning

Do yourself a favour and download the all in one IFD550/540/440 Trainer app from the Apple app store onto your iPad and you will have a realistic projection of operating whichever IFD you desire.

After download, go to your iPad Settings, select the IFD Trainer and select whether you want the 550, 540 or 440 displayed.

It is a brilliant simulator and you'll be able to operate each model and see for yourself.

Also download the Pilot Guide from the Avidyne website for you to reference while using the trainer.

Be prepared to be amazed. 

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I am new to the GTN750Xi. It is certainly a nifty GPS. I agree that touchscreens are not the best in turbulence, even putting a couple of fingers on a "ledge" for support does not always solve the problem. However, I have a lot of time with a 430AW, which is not touch screen and uses knob turns and pushes for data entry. All of that can be done on the 750. So when it is not clear, smooth air, I just use the knobs. Most of your flight plan entry and setup is done on the ground anyway, where turbulence is not an issue. Touchscreen is faster there, by quite a bit. On the fly stuff like frequency changes or flight plan changes can be done quickly with the knobs, I find myself doing that alot just as a matter of preference, it is what I am used to.

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On 4/15/2021 at 10:30 AM, gsxrpilot said:

I recently flew as a safety pilot for @ReconMax. He's got arguably the nicest late model M20J flying with a GTN 750/650 stack. He's as quick on the GTN interface as anyone I've seen. And was flying through the pages almost without looking at the screen. He certainly made it look easy. But I couldn't help but notice that so many actions that took 3 or 4 clicks on the GTN, only take 1 click on my IFD. 

 

It's true. But, my CFII pointed out that I do several things "wrong" with the unit. He showed me short cuts that he said would reduce my required "actions/clicks" but I didn't really absorb them. So, maybe I am not the best demonstrator of the path of least resistance with the 750. I will try to find those places where I "click" more than necessary and streamline it. Maybe I can improve it a little.

One example of an overly cumbersome instruction is with my G600. Lets say I want to change altitudes while coupled.

  1. I have to press my Alt button once to activate "Altitude" mode.
  2. Then dial my new altitude.
  3. Then press and hold the Alt button to "arm" the preselect. 
  4. Then press my VS button to enter "Vertical Speed" mode. 
  5. Then press and hold my VS button to "sync" with the plane's current VS.
  6. Then dial in my desired vertical speed. 

Is there a better way? That is just ridiculously long if you ask me but maybe it's one of those things that drove my 25K hours CFII nuts. Please, tell me there is a better way. I can execute those instructions very quickly but dang. While departing on climb out talking with ATC and receiving vectors and adjusting my mixture, entering IMC and scanning, it would be nice to reduce the steps.

And thanks so much to @gsxrpilot for flying with me! I was very excited to show him all I have learned in the last year and a half. He helped me get two approaches in to minimums for which I am grateful.

He also helped me avoid a terrible mistake I almost made in buying a fixer-upper. I am so glad I listened to him about that. I hate having my plane in the shop. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Wow, I left for a few days and have lots of replies! Thanks, everyone, for your help on this quest.

My situation right now is that I just became legal to fly, having taken my BFR with my favorite instructor, a lady approaching 90. My KY197 failed (as I mentioned) and I am looking for a replacement so I can at least fly legally (and take my IPC). The audio is garbled both in the sidetone and to the controllers, indicating a simple transistor or audio amplifier failure which I might be able to fix myself (there are very few people who can fix >40 year old radios).  If I can't, there are used versions around for a little more than $1k. 

I have a long time to make my decision since the earliest I can schedule a GPS installation using my on-field avionics shop (Crown Aviation on Paine Field in Everett, WA) is September. Thank you for suggesting  the iPad app. Sounds like a great idea to help in decision making. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I am leaning in the direction of an Avidyne IFD-540. I have attached a poor picture of my panel - I think a decent place for the unit is on the right side replacing the KR-85 (useless at present) and KX170 (the only comm radio which works right now). My shop is backed up and won't be able to get to it until Sept. sometime. The 550 doesn't have any features I want - I am not interested in inflight photos and have a very satisfactory AHRS on the Stratus 2i which comes with the ESGi package (which I installed after this photo was taken).

IMG_4374.JPG

Edited by warrenn
forgot something
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Warren,

Excellent choice...

The IFD is a full on modern nav com...

Select a modern panel layout with the IFD as the cornerstone...

Most birds that have done this, no longer use the ADF, KNS80, or DME...

There is an open spot on your left panel... great for an engine monitor... see if your old engine monitor device can move to that user friendly location... 

Move the old stuff to the right... when comfortable, move it further right....

Put the new stuff on the left where you can see it, touch it, enjoy it....

The WAAS GPS has made DME and ADF a thing of the past...  except for listening to ball games on the AM dial...  :)  keep the boxes as long as you have the empty space...

 

Check these details with a CFII... I’m only a PP...

Best regards,

-a-

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Thanks, A. I am trying to keep the costs down, but I will see whether I can move the KY197/KNS80 to the right without adding a lot of cost for the upgrade. I once looked behind the panel and was amazed that anyone could do any work there!

I actually like the KNS80 - it is extremely intuitive to use and I am used to it. Also, having a DME always active means I don't need to push a button to get a reading on the IFD. The accuracy in RNAV mode leaves a lot to be desired, though. I am amazed that it does a full RNAV using a very primitive Moto 6800 8-bit CPU for the number crunching (I looked inside it). 

Regards,

wn

 

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BK knew what they were doing with the KNS80... the KLN GPS boxes work in a similar fashion...

I’m just gambling...

Based on what I have seen with other people using their IFDs...

My plane still has its ADF, DME, and a KL90B...

Lots of knob twisting... one letter at a time....

:)

-a-

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1 minute ago, carusoam said:

 

My plane still has its ADF, DME, and a KL90B...

Lots of knob twisting... one letter at a time....

-a-

Anthony, while the KLN 90B was one of the best early GPS ever made, you really do need to get out of the dark ages. :)

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While we're busy spending your money, @warrenn, it looks like you could put the Avidyne in the center radio stack.  If you're taking out the ADF, the transponder and DME could go over to the right panel.  That autopilot switch and ELT switch under the indicator lights could be moved elsewhere, and the stenciled panel could be cut in half or removed to give you space under those lights.  With some juggling, it looks like you could fit the intercom, Avidyne and KNS80 down the center stack.

Also, if you're removing the ADF, you'll have some space to play with on your pilot instrument panel in addition to the blank space you have already, that would be a lovely place for an engine monitor!

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I thought the 197/80 were failing?  If so toss them and replace with the 540 in the center stack location. Instillation costs can get very expensive if you need to change a lot of the wiring. Keep the upgrade isolated to the 540 providing com 1 and outputting nav/gps data to the HSI. 
 

This 540 has been listed on Beechtalk and hasn’t sold yet…$9,750

 

451A3B59-35D3-43B3-AE51-4B5EA0D4697F.jpeg

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