Jump to content

Recommended Posts

RANT! You should do exactly as you said. I believe there are pessimistic people here and bring up what is possible like a junk engine, wings that leak fuel as fast as it goes in etc. I did the same thing to a Baron 4 years ago it was a great learning experience. Did resurrecting a 1961 Baron make financial sense? Hell no!

Value? who cares? Most people enjoy burning avgas that costs alot but adds no value to the airplane but they enjoy the experience of flying. @M20F-1968 has a F model like no other. I bet a tank of gas to a 747 that he did NOT create the airplane that it is now because he intended to sell it and make a profit. If you enjoy restoration work do you care what it is worth when your done? I doesn't sound like your doing it professionally to flip it and make money.

If it does need an engine and the current one has 522 hours on it why not fix it? Why does it have to be a $30-40K overhaul when you can do an IRAN? Maybe you need to replace the notorious junk cam and lifters. Do it yourself.

Did I say I think you should go for it?

Some pictures of the fun I had. tail corrosion, junk cam and lifters. the engine was done with about $4000 in new parts and sending out the cases and steel parts for inspection. I did most of the work so labor costs are not accurate, that said I paid $1800 for oversight checking my work and sign off.

20190319_164519.jpg

20190227_153740.jpg

20190227_153905.jpg

20181025_122440.jpg

20180920_173416.jpg

20181205_142021.jpg

20181205_140214.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

*Members that donate $10 or more do not see advertisements*

  • Replies 62
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Leaving plastic out to save weight , is a lie , not laziness ,   as the prop damage was also a lie....   Never buy anything from a liar...  

It concerns me that paint is first on your list after a ferry permit.  IMO it should be last.  Unless the plane will be kept outside and the paint is in such poor shape that it's providing no protecti

Gubni ,    Congrats , you are one of the few , people who has listened to your IA , Good for you , I researched this airplane , it has been deregistered for 20 years , probably not flown for 30 .... P

Posted Images

10 hours ago, Gubni said:

My biggest concern is everyone says it will need an engine. If that's a sure thing then I should not buy it. If that's a maybe then I would maybe buy it. My thoughts are the engine is good so the rest is maintenance and cosmetics.

Sorry to be that guy but is for your own good. As an a/p let me tell you that engine is a time bomb ready to drain your bank, is not going to last long once you start running it regular bases. Even if and that’s a BIG IF, the internals haven’t taken a beating by corrosion for not being lubricated Father Time did a number on the engine seals and gaskets, best case scenario the engine will leak from everywhere after a week or so of use worse case scenario the engine will failed at the worse time.

A barn find car fails you pull over you don’t have the same luxury with a plane, ask the poor souls of that B36 that crashed a week ago. Overhaul the engine at the very least.

Good video on the that accident: 

 

Edited by Sixstring2k
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

We were all newbies once in this airplane ownership game. And we each had to get educated. Some just pay a lot more for that education than others. I'm very glad that I listened to the advice when I was buying my first Mooney. I was looking for a cheap E or even J that I could afford to buy. In the end I was convinced to instead spend the budget on the nicest C I could find. 

The difference was I got to spend two years flying and logging 400 hours traveling around the country and two trips to Oshkosh, in a very nice and capable Mooney. That was as opposed to two years of fixing, writing checks, and waiting around wishing I was flying. 

In the homebuilding community they talk about people who are in it to build, and people who are in it to fly. Typically builders have completed not one, but a few airplanes that are all flying. Flyers on the other hand, often never finish the first build as they really just want to fly. 

@Skates97said it well. We are all constantly fixing up, repairing, upgrading, and improving our airplanes. But being able to fly while doing so, makes it palatable.

If the OP wants to build, this is a good opportunity. Not as good as building a kit plane of some sort, but good enough. But if the OP wants to fly, this will be an expensive lesson in how not to approach airplane ownership.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Similar but not the same. I bought a junk dune buggy, very powered. The engine would turn 350 degrees.  I soaked the cylinders in wd40 and would turn the engine by hand daily.  Finally got it to turn over.  A new battery, carburetor etc.  it ran for months, then suddenly froze up.  Went to a shop for rebuild.  Many new parts.  
 

That lycoming may run a while, but may be cheaper to field overhaul today instead of tomorrow.

Good luck.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was facing the same issue with a continental.  I talked to a rebuilder about it and he said I could do it on the cheap and get some life out of the engine but before I do that I should look at the inside of the oil pump.  When I did that I could see scratches from where all those little bits were flying around inside the motor.  
I went with a field overhaul and it ran great.  I slept better at night too.  It sucks at the time of payment but then it’s done.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

We were all newbies once in this airplane ownership game. And we each had to get educated. Some just pay a lot more for that education than others....

if the OP wants to fly, this will be an expensive lesson in how not to approach airplane ownership.

^^^^. THIS x 1000. ^^^^^^

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ron McBride said:

That lycoming may run a while, but may be cheaper to field overhaul today instead of tomorrow.

 

I agree, but I’d go one step further.  With only 522 hours, I would only do a tear down and IRAN.

For half the money (or less), he will get the same peace of mind, as well as all new gaskets, seals, etc.  Probably new lifters as well, and a new cam if he needs it.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I did something similar with our K, but it hadn't been sitting quite that long. It was a seizure by the US Marshal's service, and sat outside in Ft. Lauderdale for about 1.5 yrs before I got it. Got about a 100 hrs or son on the engine before a full overhaul, but then again, I had NO clue on the times, as I got NO logs! I've been able to do a lot of the other things you mentioned myself, and in stages. Could I have spent the same amount on a flying plane and not had to mess with it??? Almost certainly. But, like you, I have loved doing a lot of the work myself. I even did the leather seat upholstery myself. Love, love, love it. But, I wasn't in it to resell it either! Take all the advice listed above into account, get a good look at the plane, and then do what you feel is right. Your heart tells you you want it, but don't ignore your gut if you get a bad feeling once you look it over!!!

 

Do keep us all posted!

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, 67 m20F chump said:

I was facing the same issue with a continental.  I talked to a rebuilder about it and he said I could do it on the cheap and get some life out of the engine but before I do that I should look at the inside of the oil pump.  When I did that I could see scratches from where all those little bits were flying around inside the motor.  
I went with a field overhaul and it ran great.  I slept better at night too.  It sucks at the time of payment but then it’s done.

How much trouble is it to get to the oil pump?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Gubni said:

How much trouble is it to get to the oil pump?

Get a pic of an engine from the manufacturer... parts manual...

Typically, the engine’s oil pump is on the accessory case...

The cover to the case is between the engine case and the firewall...  a very tight area to get into...

Be looking for ADs for the engine... Lycomings had a gear pump AD that required changing out one of the aluminum gear pump gears... around y2k...

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Gubni said:

How much trouble is it to get to the oil pump?

To get to the oil pump on a Lycoming you have to remove the accessory case off the back of the engine, so basically you have to start by pulling the engine away from the airframe.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing to consider: insurance is going to be expensive. Your low flight time and the fact that you plan to use the Mooney to get your instrument rating are things that will give the actuaries pause.

I don't see how you get that airplane flying for less than $40k...and that's rolling the dice on not overhauling the engine. Do you really want to pour in money for paint, avionics, and interior all to be carried behind a suspect engine? It's just been sitting too long. And you stated the last annual was 2005, but last flew in 2011? That leads me to believe the previous owner wasn't terribly meticulous about maintenance for quite some time. Lots of red flags.

You're trying to do 2 things at once: restore an airplane and complete flight training. As a CFI I can tell you the most efficient way to complete a rating is to fly as often as your schedule and wallet allow. Every day if possible. This Mooney isn't going to be flying a lot as you complete all your desired/needed upgrades.

Like a previous poster said..you might need 2 airplanes.

Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, will1874 said:

Another thing to consider: insurance is going to be expensive. Your low flight time and the fact that you plan to use the Mooney to get your instrument rating are things that will give the actuaries pause.

I don't see how you get that airplane flying for less than $40k...and that's rolling the dice on not overhauling the engine. Do you really want to pour in money for paint, avionics, and interior all to be carried behind a suspect engine? It's just been sitting too long. And you stated the last annual was 2005, but last flew in 2011? That leads me to believe the previous owner wasn't terribly meticulous about maintenance for quite some time. Lots of red flags.

You're trying to do 2 things at once: restore an airplane and complete flight training. As a CFI I can tell you the most efficient way to complete a rating is to fly as often as your schedule and wallet allow. Every day if possible. This Mooney isn't going to be flying a lot as you complete all your desired/needed upgrades.

Like a previous poster said..you might need 2 airplanes.

Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for the reply. I plan to finish my PPL in the rental Cessna 172. I fly 3 days a week right now. I have called Avemco and they told me about $2000 once I have my PPL. A way around that is to set my CFI as the operator, but I haven't researched that for more details.

From 2005 to 2011 if was only flown in pattern to keep it lubricated.

I just got off the phone with a Lycoming engine builder. He said not to be concerned with it sitting since it has been hangared. He told me he recently bought an R22 helicopter with the same motor that had sat almost 20 years and flew it home. He said if it need a cam that should be about $6000, but not to worry about that. 

I am going to look at it tomorrow, so I will report back more soon.

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Gubni said:

Thank you for the reply. I plan to finish my PPL in the rental Cessna 172. I fly 3 days a week right now. I have called Avemco and they told me about $2000 once I have my PPL. A way around that is to set my CFI as the operator, but I haven't researched that for more details.

From 2005 to 2011 if was only flown in pattern to keep it lubricated.

I just got off the phone with a Lycoming engine builder. He said not to be concerned with it sitting since it has been hangared. He told me he recently bought an R22 helicopter with the same motor that had sat almost 20 years and flew it home. He said if it need a cam that should be about $6000, but not to worry about that. 

I am going to look at it tomorrow, so I will report back more soon.


how do you feel about that advice?  :)

 

There are risk takers and there are monster risk takers...

There are story tellers and there are monster story tellers...


Or maybe it was just a casual conversation...

 

The nice thing about an R22...

It has that “Land Now” option and the “Power Out, Land Now” option...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinson_R22

See if you can find the M20F’s engine listed in the R22’s wiki pages...

Some basic differences you might see....

  • Displacement 
  • Vertical vs. horizontal arrangement
  • Compression ratio
  • Cooling fan, vs air cooled via airspeed...

Some people, somewhere, will take an engine that hasn’t flown in 20years... and fly it...

Disintegrating cam lobes aren’t usually a land now challenge... they are a wear out quickly challenge...

the lobes get ground down, and send metal bits through the oil system... as this occurs... the value of the engine case becomes a higher risk... depending on how bad the metal bits have spread throughout the case... 

But, those details aren’t going to show up in a casual conversation... like what preparations were done to mitigate the known risks...


MS is pretty good with helping people spend their Money!

It is also pretty good at helping people mitigate risks...

:)

Best regards,

-a-

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like it just boils down to risk. 
Personally, I’d like to avoid losing an engine in the air, and while that isn’t guaranteed, even with a new engine, the odds are much better you will, flying around on that one.  But you know what M Twain said about statistics.  “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics”.

That being said, if everyone here detailed their last five flights publicly, I bet there would be a whole lot of comments about what each should or shouldn’t do.  Or at a minimum, what they would have done differently. 
If you feel like it’s a worthy risk to take off in a plane 16 years out of annual with an engine that hasn’t run for 10 years, (not sure how you fly around in the pattern legally for 6 years out of annual), that’s up to you. My experience is that someone who would do what’s been done to that plane, wouldn’t likely be the kind of person to do good maintenance and practices PRIOR to this result.  

Personally, I would never intentionally buy such a sophisticated piece of machinery from this personality type.  But I am also anal retentive to a flaw.  

I’d feel safe in saying you would be in the small minority of people who would....

But it’s your decision...  

I would very much like to be proven wrong!

”Hey, watch this!  Hold my beer”

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

If it was me, most of my attention would be on the engine, borescope to see if any corrosion is present, oil change, injector cleaning, and spark. Most are commenting on rebuilding, overhaul, IRAN's. I'm concern about your ferry permit and someone flying it back to home base. The engine probably will start and sounds good for sitting that long but can you make it out of the pattern is another thing. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gubni said:

I have called Avemco and they told me about $2000 once I have my PPL.

What hull value, or is that $2000 liability only?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

What hull value, or is that $2000 liability only?

Could be the 20k mentioned in the title..?

Best regards,

-a-

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, J Bird said:

If it was me, most of my attention would be on the engine, borescope to see if any corrosion is present, oil change, injector cleaning, and spark. Most are commenting on rebuilding, overhaul, IRAN's. I'm concern about your ferry permit and someone flying it back to home base. The engine probably will start and sounds good for sitting that long but can you make it out of the pattern is another thing. 

We will be checking with a boroscope tomorrow. Once we get it back to home base we will pull a jug and check the cam.

Edited by Gubni
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Regarding Avemco I called and asked how much assuming I had 45 hours and my PPL with a hull value of 50k and they told me about $2000. It was a few weeks ago. Maybe it was more, but less than $2500. They were dramatically cheaper than other companies. Parker has my liability insurance now.

Edited by Gubni
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've read alot about gear up landings and it seems most are simple "I forgot" so this seems like a good add on. Also since I will have a questionable engine I plan to look into an engine monitor.

FB_IMG_1618189832839.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


*Members that donate $10 or more do not see advertisements*



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.