Jump to content

Bravo-Ovation-Acclaim


Recommended Posts

In my search for an Ovation I have started expanding my search to include the "fire breathing dragons" as well. I would think it is fair to say that at OH the turbo will generally cost double to replace compared to NA.

However many references are made to the "Super Expensive Lycoming" engine on the Bravo, but the cost for a factory reman on the Bravo is less than the TSIO-550 according to Airpower's website.

Ovation Factory reman IO 550  $48000 Likely to make TBO.

Bravo Factory reman TIO540    $68000 Likely to make TBO but might need Turbo and exhaust work midlife

Acclaim Factory reman TIO550 ~$86000. Likely will not make TBO without TopOH midway and Turbo OH cost will be the same as the lycoming.

Am I missing something in these numbers? For if this is correct the Bravo really has a seeming undeserved  reputation for being more expensive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That’s correct.  I think when people say the Bravo engine is expensive they are comparing it to the airframe value which can vary from $100k to $300k for a late model GX.  On the other hand, you generally can’t touch an acclaim for less than $300K.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like your list, it is obviously well thought out and researched. Around here everyone seems to toss the bravo under the bus when referring to engine overhauls. It will always be a bravo factory reman price vs what some price list on the internet shows for the owners plane.  My opinion is buy the best condition plane you can find and negotiate to get the deal you’re looking for...which is tough in this crazy buying frenzy environment. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hilbilly said:

Am I missing something in these numbers? For if this is correct the Bravo really has a seeming undeserved  reputation for being more expensive.

I can't speak for the TLS or Bravo, but an Ovation factory reman is currently listed at $53,214 (Factory New is $63,541).  An Acclaim factory reman is currently listed at $99,297 (Factory New is $114,110).  AirPower, Inc. (the premier Continental engine reseller) can go a bit lower...typically $1000 - $1500 on the Ovation engine, and maybe double that on the Acclaim engine, but not a large margin on either, unfortunately.  Continental had a price increase just before the beginning of 2021, which was much larger than previous increases.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

I can't speak for the TLS or Bravo, but an Ovation factory reman is currently listed at $53,214 (Factory New is $63,541).  An Acclaim factory reman is currently listed at $99,297 (Factory New is $114,110).  AirPower, Inc. (the premier Continental engine reseller) can go a bit lower...typically $1000 - $1500 on the Ovation engine, and maybe double that on the Acclaim engine, but not a large margin on either, unfortunately.  Continental had a price increase just before the beginning of 2021, which was much larger than previous increases.

A lot of items are really showing the ramifications of supply/demand and inflation. Between last year and now a new dump trailer I’ve been looking to buy has gone up over 22%. When we overhauled the 550 the factory reman was 40ish...that wasn’t that long ago. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

When we overhauled the 550 the factory reman was 40ish...that wasn’t that long ago.

I believe that.  In June of 2014, my IO550N8B factory reman was $39,960 + $450'ish for shipping to San Marcos where it was replaced.  Can't believe how much they've gone up.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yikes!  Prices are climbing fast on airplane parts.

I know the supply chain is pretty messed up in the world right now.  I wonder if the prices will come back a bit after the supply chain rights itself in a year or two?  Or is there only one way prices go - up?

As more evidence of the messed up supply chain - I wanted to get a bike wheel built this week around a high quality hub I have - calling all the shops in the region no one has a bike rim and they cannot find one from the normal suppliers - the bike industry supply chain is also topsy turvy.  Shops can't even buy bikes to sell.  Or bike parts.

Scarcity always drives up prices.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Yikes!  Prices are climbing fast on airplane parts.

I know the supply chain is pretty messed up in the world right now.  I wonder if the prices will come back a bit after the supply chain rights itself in a year or two?  Or is there only one way prices go - up?

As more evidence of the messed up supply chain - I wanted to get a bike wheel built this week around a high quality hub I have - calling all the shops in the region no one has a bike rim and they cannot find one from the normal suppliers - the bike industry supply chain is also topsy turvy.  Shops can't even buy bikes to sell.  Or bike parts.

Scarcity always drives up prices.

I’m not trying to be political, but with fuel prices going up and massive  inflation from printing trillions, I don’t see prices ever going back down.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Davidv said:

I’m not trying to be political, but with fuel prices going up and massive  inflation from printing trillions, I don’t see prices ever going back down.

I tend to agree - as I said scarcity drives prices up.   Competition drives it back down but at least in airplanes, I don't see a lot of competition.  At best, I could see it staying flat for a long time until general inflation catches up so lowering the price relative to the then current value of currency.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Hilbilly said:

In my search for an Ovation I have started expanding my search to include the "fire breathing dragons" as well. I would think it is fair to say that at OH the turbo will generally cost double to replace compared to NA.

However many references are made to the "Super Expensive Lycoming" engine on the Bravo, but the cost for a factory reman on the Bravo is less than the TSIO-550 according to Airpower's website.

Ovation Factory reman IO 550  $48000 Likely to make TBO.

Bravo Factory reman TIO540    $68000 Likely to make TBO but might need Turbo and exhaust work midlife

Acclaim Factory reman TIO550 ~$86000. Likely will not make TBO without TopOH midway and Turbo OH cost will be the same as the lycoming.

Am I missing something in these numbers? For if this is correct the Bravo really has a seeming undeserved  reputation for being more expensive.

The Bravo will  make TBO if treated right, including the exhaust system and turbo. On the other hand, if you like running the TIT above 1600, you will most likely have little grey exhaust tell tell's show up in the crossover tube to let you know its cracked. The Cyl heads on the Bravo are robust with the Bravo mod done on the -A1A engine. Just make sure you pay attention to the mags, in fact, get the surefly elec. mag at the first chance. It really makes the Bravo engine a lot nicer.

The Acclaim will also do well if the SB for the crank ventilation has been done. That original design was a head scratcher... Again, keep the stainless from being plastic by keeping the TIT down under 1600 unless you want to pick up .00005 kts TAS because you have lightened the wallet a bunch

Newer Conti heads are a bit better on the valve geometry than earlier versions, but lack blueprint refinement IMO

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hillbilly, you might do some checking with a good MSC on your longevity numbers for the Acclaim if you are interesed in one. My understanding is that a major issue early on was that the breather dumped into the exhaust and had a strong tendency to coke up, which caused some very short times to top overhaul. I.e. 400 hours SNEW, and usually most or all of the cylinders. The coked breather would lead to crankcase pressure, which leads to other really bad things. I believe that issue was corrected, but like the Bravo "wet head" or the GB->LB conversion you will still find some unconverted engines, not sure. Also, what I heard about ten or twelve years ago from MSC's was that marketing was telling pilots they could drive an Acclaim in "fire breathing dragon" mode, meaning full throttle, leaned to best power, or leaned as far as the TIT could handle it. Anyway, what I was told was that method of operation was causing early engine failures. I guess if you could afford a top every 400 hours, go for it, operate as you like. But the Acclaim engine is a very nice engine, I think if someone were to learn to operate it conservatively, lean of peak, you could produce 70-75% cruise HP and the engine would stay cool. I would not kick the Acclaim out of bed because it is "too hot." I don't think it was the Acclaim's fault.  If you found the rare Acclaim with a good UL and got it running LOP, probably that would be the best of all the Mooneys. All that said, I don't have one and have never flown one, I just have enough turbo hours to understand what is good for a turbo engine and what is not.

PS Mike-elliott and I must have posted at the same time, we think alike I guess.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Hilbilly said:

In my search for an Ovation I have started expanding my search to include the "fire breathing dragons" as well. I would think it is fair to say that at OH the turbo will generally cost double to replace compared to NA.

However many references are made to the "Super Expensive Lycoming" engine on the Bravo, but the cost for a factory reman on the Bravo is less than the TSIO-550 according to Airpower's website.

Ovation Factory reman IO 550  $48000 Likely to make TBO.

Bravo Factory reman TIO540    $68000 Likely to make TBO but might need Turbo and exhaust work midlife

Acclaim Factory reman TIO550 ~$86000. Likely will not make TBO without TopOH midway and Turbo OH cost will be the same as the lycoming.

Am I missing something in these numbers? For if this is correct the Bravo really has a seeming undeserved  reputation for being more expensive.

Cost per mile is ultimately what is important. It’s not much different on an Ovation vs. Bravo all things considered since the Bravo travels more miles per hour and most likely won’t need a set of cylinders half way to TBO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aviation is all about trade offs, and what’s worth something to one person doesn’t carry the same value to others. 
I have no bravo experience, but know enough bravo owners who love their plane to understand its attractions. I have hundreds of hours in two ovations and two acclaims, and an ultra acclaim. I would be ok with an ovation but I wouldn’t want to fly without my turbo.  
Understand the chatter for what it is, others opinions.  
Then buy what you want, and the chances are you will love it.  
(as long as it’s a Mooney that is, if you get something else, caveat emptor)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the replies.

Regarding the premature OH on Continentals.... For background I have owned a NA 210, Turbo 210 and P210, a Cessna 414 and now a 421B. All Continentals, all operated LOP with good engine monitoring. (I have been operating LOP for 15 years) and have done the APS course many moons ago..... Bottom line: The Continentals seem to always need cylinder work. My lowly C Model's Lycoming on the other hand just keeps chugging along.... I think the IO550 might be an exception but even on them I have seen Ovations advertised with a top OH midlife. 

Hilgard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO you need to keep the cylinders cool in the climb, especially the Continentals.  With my C I can accept 400ish for a minute if needed. With the 550 anything over 380 has us making changes immediately.  I think the 310 hp acclaim could still have good cylinder longevity if the FF is set high enough for cooling. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With reference to Flaming Dragon Mode...

This is a mode of operation... not so much related to the type of engine...

It is perfectly acceptable to run an engine like this, as outlined by the POH...

The cost is a measly set of cylinders, often at the halfway point...

Holy cow those measlies add up...

Many IO550 drivers have learned LOP... and max fuel flows... and retain their original cylinders because they can...

 

Of course... some people budget a top OH because they can...

 

As a plane owner...  we always have to budget for an OH...

In rough numbers...

adding extra cylinders cost more...

adding a turbo is like adding another pair of cylinders...

a Bravo has both extra cylinders and a turbo...

The Acclaim doubles up on the turbos...

The exhaust system on a turbo bird costs a few bucks more as well...

 

Flying gets economically more serious, the deeper you get into it...

It is worth it...

 

Best regards,

-a-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Hilbilly said:

Thanks for all the replies.

Regarding the premature OH on Continentals.... For background I have owned a NA 210, Turbo 210 and P210, a Cessna 414 and now a 421B. All Continentals, all operated LOP with good engine monitoring. (I have been operating LOP for 15 years) and have done the APS course many moons ago..... Bottom line: The Continentals seem to always need cylinder work. My lowly C Model's Lycoming on the other hand just keeps chugging along.... I think the IO550 might be an exception but even on them I have seen Ovations advertised with a top OH midlife. 

Hilgard

For the longest period, Continental struggled with a quality cylinder product im told. One engine builder remarked he was surprised they bothered to drill valve guide holes when he unboxed a new set a few years back and proceeded to completely rework the valve geometry on all of them prior to installation. A few shops specialize in getting them set up correct. From what I hear, they are much better now, but this is antidotal also. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

For the longest period, Continental struggled with a quality cylinder product im told. One engine builder remarked he was surprised they bothered to drill valve guide holes when he unboxed a new set a few years back and proceeded to completely rework the valve geometry on all of them prior to installation. A few shops specialize in getting them set up correct. From what I hear, they are much better now, but this is antidotal also. 

The 252 two hangars down from me got a factory new engine for his plane in 2017. It is going into annual this month and has 1650 hours on the engine and is burning about a quart every 10-12 hours. As he says, he flies it the way Bob Kromer wrote on how to fly it, and he has no problem with it. The previous engine in the plane when he bought it had a top O/H at 1400 hours, but went to 2650 before the latest one was installed.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/8/2021 at 6:31 AM, Hilbilly said:

Ovation Factory reman IO 550  $48000

Bravo Factory reman TIO540    $68000

Acclaim Factory reman TIO550 ~$86000

The above is true, but don't forget about Jewell. They have a fantastic reputation and Paul just had one of their overhauls put in his new Encore.

Continental IO-550 $22,000

Lycoming TIO-540 $22,800

They don't list the TIO-550 but their TSIO-520 is $23,450

http://www.jewellaviation.com/pdf/Price Sheet 2020 Engines.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, SalMCFI said:

Where does one find Bob's suggestions on how to fly it?


Bob spent some time writing about each model Mooney had...

See if you can find the back issues, electronically, of the MapaLog that was originally printed by MAPA.

 

https://mooneypilots.org

Best regards,

-a-

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

The above is true, but don't forget about Jewell. They have a fantastic reputation and Paul just had one of their overhauls put in his new Encore.

Continental IO-550 $22,000

Lycoming TIO-540 $22,800

They don't list the TIO-550 but their TSIO-520 is $23,450

http://www.jewellaviation.com/pdf/Price Sheet 2020 Engines.pdf

I have been watching them at Jewell.  They seem to be the excellent shop with the excellent prices!  I have a TSIO520NB.  So that would be my price I guess.  Its hard for me to tell what that price really includes.  I am guessing it means re-use your cylinders? So new cylinders add on to the cost.  And if you want accessories overhauled.  And exhaust.  And new engine mounts.  Hoping the cam is in good shape and doesn't need to be replaced.  Plus r&r?  As close as I guess, I would guess it a little over 40k fly out the door with a complete firewall forward overhaul?  Maybe 42-45?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I have been watching them at Jewell.  They seem to be the excellent shop with the excellent prices!  I have a TSIO520NB.  So that would be my price I guess.  Its hard for me to tell what that price really includes.  I am guessing it means re-use your cylinders? So new cylinders add on to the cost.  And if you want accessories overhauled.  And exhaust.  And new engine mounts.  Hoping the cam is in good shape and doesn't need to be replaced.  Plus r&r?  As close as I guess, I would guess it a little over 40k fly out the door with a complete firewall forward overhaul?  Maybe 42-45?

Yooper would be the best one to ask, he overhauled his Rocket right before/as he sold.  I would think you’d want all the accessories at least overhauled which really starts to add up. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, MIm20c said:

Yooper would be the best one to ask, he overhauled his Rocket right before/as he sold.  I would think you’d want all the accessories at least overhauled which really starts to add up. 

Yeah, from my reading these threads, you can end up pretty close to a factory Rebuilt price if you use new cylinders and overhaul all the accessories.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.