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Is a Mooney right for my mission? If so, which one?


Pogamassing

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18 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I came close to pulling the trigger on three 231, 262, 252 aircraft over the past 3 years. In the end it was two young kids at home (O2 needed for high altitude) that made me pass. First was an at tbo 252 for 100k, second was a 231 with a fresh factory reman and beautiful panel for 130k, and the last one a year ago was a nice 262 with tks for 100k.  The last one hurts the most with the prices skyrocketing.  The mid body aircraft might have the best balance of all the Mooney aircraft. 

Apart from the weight of the later, bigger engines, Mooney also started adding more and more sophisticated equipment, which is really nice, but it weighs. The issue is one of the law of physics, not the coolness of the additions. I am told there are some Acclaims with really good useful loads, but I know there are also some Acclaims that cannot carry a full sized male pilot and full fuel, which is just too bad it is such a great, great aircraft. I covet one. I will lose whatever weight is necessary.

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15 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I was tempted by that recent 262 too but it also had very significant damage history, essentially a total rebuild.

It did, a large drop during the flare to land if I’m not mistaken around 800 hrs prior to the sale. However, it still provided a lot of value and its flying all over the country right now. 

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If you have a need to haul a family over water or rough terrain, a twin is a better choice, and in many cases, is a better value overall. The nonsense about triple the costs is just that, nonsense. When you compare the total cost of a late model HP single to its twin counterpart, they are close to even. The single's higher purchase price is offset by lower operating costs. The twin's lower purchase price is in turn offset by the higher operating costs. I have 30 years of commercial maintenance experience to draw on, and 20 years of owning and operating a Twin Comanche, a Geronimo Apache, and an Aztec. If you are going the twin route, you would be better off getting something with Lycoming engines, because Continentals will always be less reliable, and cost more to operate. 

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The twins check all the boxes for me I just don’t think I have the available time to stay proficient in one.  I keep going back to the TKS 58 listing on BT every time you guys say they’re affordable within reason. My kids/wife and even my in-laws would love the barn doors and back seat. 

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Personally I won’t fly a twin unless I’m flying at least 100 hours per year. Les than that and I don’t feel I’m safe. Every few months I’ll shut down an engine just to keep things fresh.

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Maybe try it this way...

The conventional wisdom, and the guys at twincessna.org report it costing 3 to 4 times more to run a twin than a single. Of course they're talking about the average, and we know there are a lot of guys out there who don't take care of their airplanes/engines as well as they should. But obviously @KLRDMD and @philiplane are doing it for a lot less. So if you're thinking of a twin, you might talk to those guys about how they do it.

I was in a similar situation when I moved from an M20C to an M20K 252. Everyone warned me about how much more it was going to cost to run than my M20C. I was warned about all the cylinders I was going to buy, and the outrageous cost to keep overhauling that turbo. But a few, namely @kortopates and @KLRDMD told me it didn't have to be that way and it wasn't their experience. I copied all their posts and advice on the subject and saved it to a folder so I could refer back to it often. 700 hours later and doing a major overhaul on the engine, and they have been proven right. I consider the engine overhaul at TBO to be a capital expense, while cylinders and turbo between overhauls to be running costs. My K has been no more expensive to operate than my M20C. The insurance is a bit more as it's a higher hull value, but nothing else. And it's cheaper on fuel A to B. 

Fly it right and take care of it, and it probably doesn't cost as much as one would think.

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The 3 to 4 times factor is not comparing apples to apples. If you take an M20C, and compare it to a 310, obviously the costs will be 2-4 times greater, depending mostly on how well loved the 310 was. That's no different than comparing a Smart Car to a Chevy Suburban.

And twin Cessnas run from a basic 310, to an all-weather pressurized 421. The 421 will easily cost 2-3 times more than the 310, because it has 2-3 times more systems that need maintenance.

You should be comparing a late model FIKI Ovation or Acclaim to the 310. The capabilities and equipment are similar.  

And, I'd rather spend a little time keeping current in a twin, than keeping current in single engine forced landings. With the twin, you have choices if you have an engine failure. With the single, you have none, unless your single has a parachute.

 

Edited by philiplane
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You guys are wanting to cheery pick and skew results.

Click on the link, read it. No one says anything about pressurized 421’s, it was C-310 specific

https://twincessna.org/pdf/What Does it Cost to Own a 310 in 2020.pdf

Compare what they say the costs are to the average J model Mooney, I say J as it’s the average, ordinary Mooney,

‘get the average cost of the Mooney off of this site, I’m sure it’s somewhere.

Only two conclusions are logical, either the guys on the Cessna site are full of it and are wrong, or it cost three times as much to operate a C-310 than the average J model

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6 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

You guys are wanting to cheery pick and skew results.

Click on the link, read it. No one says anything about pressurized 421’s, it was C-310 specific

https://twincessna.org/pdf/What Does it Cost to Own a 310 in 2020.pdf

Compare what they say the costs are to the average J model Mooney, I say J as it’s the average, ordinary Mooney,

‘get the average cost of the Mooney off of this site, I’m sure it’s somewhere.

Only two conclusions are logical, either the guys on the Cessna site are full of it and are wrong, or it cost three times as much to operate a C-310 than the average J model

So with the average of $338 an hour, and your 3-4 times factor, you're saying you can operate an M20J for $84-112 per hour? When it cost at least $60 hourly for fuel?

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Their average was closer to $360, average it out and see.

‘Then you pay $60 an hour for fuel? My last fuel delivery was $3.85 a gl, I burn about 8 gl an hour, often less but use 8. That times 3.85 is just under $31.

‘What do you pay for fuel and or what’s your fuel burn?

So anyway based on what I saw in this forum it seems $120 is about what they say, which is almost exactly 1/3 what the Cessna guys say.

‘I don’t know what it cost to fly to be truthful. it costs what it costs. I’m an A&P, own my own hanger etc, etc, plus I don’t put costs down, besides it’s not what it costs me, or you. The point is what does it cost on average.

‘One data point is irrelevant. The Cessna site had I think 250 respondents that they averaged out, and many were A&P/IA’s too and that skews costs for those that aren’t.

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1 minute ago, A64Pilot said:

Their average was closer to $360, average it out and see.

‘Then you pay $60 an hour for fuel? My last fuel delivery was $3.85 a gl, I burn about 8 gl an hour, often less but use 8. That times 3.85 is just under $31.

‘What do you pay for fuel and or what’s your fuel burn?

So anyway based on what I saw in this forum it seems $120 is about what they say, which is almost exactly 1/3 what the Cessna guys say.

‘I don’t know what it cost to fly to be truthful. it costs what it costs. I’m an A&P, own my own hanger etc, etc, plus I don’t put costs down, besides it’s not what it costs me, or you. The point is what does it cost on average.

‘One data point is irrelevant. The Cessna site had I think 250 respondents that they averaged out, and many were A&P/IA’s too and that skews costs for those that aren’t.

The OP is talking about real world conditions, averages that he would see, not special arrangements for self-fueling at home, etc. Load up the family and go. The average price for fuel nationwide is much higher than 3.85. More like $5.00+, which is what you'll pay when traveling to the places that families want to visit.

8 gallons an hour loaded up with family? Putting along at 55 percent power maybe, but the people in the back just want to get there. Fully loaded planes with a family in a hurry on board burn at the high end of the range, up to 10-11 GPH for 200 HP. Got to get there before they get restless.

Add in insurance, tie down or hangar, finance, annual, reserves, upgrades, etc, and he should budget $150+ per hour for 100 hours annually. I've maintained a lot of Mooneys and had owner's share their all-in expenses with me. Singles cost more than many people think, and twins cost less than many people think.  The Cessna survey is a decent look at the costs. What you'll learn is that they are much more expensive to operate than Piper twins. 

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8 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

You did defer maintenance as by your own admission you only overhauled one engine in that time, and overflew a TBO, if overflying TBO isn’t deferring maintenance, then please tell me what your definition of deferring maintenance is?

TBO isn't applicable under part 91 flying. It realistically only applies to 121 and 135 operators. Plenty of people take their engine way over TBO. If its running beautifully, why drop a 50 grand check when its not necessary?

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1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

‘I don’t know what it cost to fly to be truthful. it costs what it costs. I’m an A&P, own my own hanger etc, etc, plus I don’t put costs down, besides it’s not what it costs me, or you. The point is what does it cost on average.

‘One data point is irrelevant. 

Say, WHAT??

The point is what is it going to cost ME!  I don't give a tinker's dam what the average is of 250 owners I know zip about, that likely includes more than a few morons that bought on the cheap and ended up putting two new engines plus God knows what else into their holes in the sky before selling at a huge loss.  Think that might skew that precious average you're so in love with?

So, let me get this straight...you admit you "don't know what it costs to fly to be truthful". Yet, you're questioning the veracity of KLRMD's actual EXPERIENCE with 17, going 18, planes...including 7 frickin' twins???

I'd say he's a damn smart guy; I'm pretty sure after 17 planes the odds would have caught up to him by now if your doomsday SWAGed averaged costs were real.

Stay in Mama's basement and keep waiting for John McClane's call for you to save the day:D

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As mentioned I have posted actual, real world expenses on this site previously a number of times. The following is from a time that I owned both a Mooney 231 and a B55 Baron at the same time. Since I had a non-equity partner I had to determine actual expenses as he was paying 50% of them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I mentioned that a twin is about 50% more than a comparable single.

I have a non-equity partner in my airplanes. He has a fair amount of Mooney time but did not even have a multi rating yet when I got the Baron so the insurance on the Baron will go down significantly at renewal. The hull value is the same on both airplanes.

For my Mooney 231, the expenses are roughly (my non equity partner pays half of this plus the hourly amount and his fuel):
Insurance $2,130
Hangar $3,730
Annual $3,000
Subscriptions $732
Miscellaneous: $3,000
Yearly Total $12,600
Plus $30/hour airframe and prop depreciation plus fuel

For my Baron, the expenses are roughly (my non equity partner pays half of this plus the hourly amount and his fuel):
Insurance $3,724
Hangar $3,730   
Annual $5,000
Subscriptions $732
Miscellaneous $4,000
Yearly Total $17,186
Plus $45/hour airframe and prop depreciation plus fuel

200 hours in the Mooney is about 175 hours in the Baron. In round numbers and 13 GPH overall in the Mooney and 22 GPH overall in the Baron, with fuel at $4.50/gallon you're looking at $11,700 in fuel for the Mooney and $17,325 in the Baron. Add the hourly rate for another $6,000 in the Mooney and $7,875 in the Baron. Including R&R, a TSIO-360 engine overhaul will run about $25,000 for an 1800 hour TBO and an IO-470 will run about $20,000 for a 1500 hour TBO. That adds about $14/hour to the Mooney and $13/hour per engine to the Baron.

Therefore, one year of equivalent flying costs about:

Mooney $33,000

Baron $46,500

As I wrote, *roughly* 50% more to fly a twin than a single. A Twin Comanche will fall between the Mooney and the Baron for all-in expenses, figure $40,000/year for 190 hours.

This assumes both airplanes are owned free and clear, no airplane payments

*** Then later in the same thread I realized I made a mistake and corrected it, as follows:

The $30 & $45 per hour did include engine reserves, my mistake. So that makes the Mooney about $30,00 per year for 200 hours ($150/hr) and the Baron about $41,000 for 175 hours ($235/hr). That’s only 35% more $$/yr to do the same amount of travel, not twice as much and certain not four times as much. While the Baron costs about 50% more per hour than the Mooney it only costs about 35% more per year to own, maintain and fly.

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1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

Say, WHAT??

The point is what is it going to cost ME!  I don't give a tinker's dam what the average is of 250 owners I know zip about, that likely includes more than a few morons that bought on the cheap and ended up putting two new engines plus God knows what else into their holes in the sky before selling at a huge loss.  Think that might skew that precious average you're so in love with?

So, let me get this straight...you admit you "don't know what it costs to fly to be truthful". Yet, you're questioning the veracity of KLRMD's actual EXPERIENCE with 17, going 18, planes...including 7 frickin' twins???

I'd say he's a damn smart guy; I'm pretty sure after 17 planes the odds would have caught up to him by now if your doomsday SWAGed averaged costs were real.

Stay in Mama's basement and keep waiting for John McClane's call for you to save the day:D

Yeah, keep think your smarter than everybody else and your special. If your basing your numbers on outliers good luck with that, keep thinking averages don’t matter, all those other people are fools, your smarter than all the people on the Cessna twin site, what the Hell do 250 Cessna twin owners know, right?

How is it that you guys can think that flying two engines with two props, two of everything only cost just a little more than one?

Explain that logic, do engines and props have longer TBO’s or cost less, maybe your getting a break buying two at a time?

Using your logic then us single engine guys are stupid, why fly a single when a twin is just a little bit more?

Maybe that’s why you see so many twins flying right? I mean they out number the singles don’t they?
So what’s stopping you? Go buy a twin, why are you flying that tiny little airplane? 

‘Use your brain, if they were so economical, you would see a whole lot more of them, and there woud be a whole lot more in production, but there isn’t, why do you think that is? Why aren’t most new aircraft twins?

So which twin do you fly?

 

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52 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

How is it that you guys can think that flying two engines with two props, two of everything only cost just a little more than one?

 

50% more is hardly 'just a little more.' But, it sure is NOT 3X to 4X, either!

Outlier??  Well, I'll tell you what, 18 planes worth of data tells me I need to learn how KLRDMD manages his airplanes....you're free to follow the experts at the Cessna site:D

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Sometimes you have to realize....

Mom was right...

It’s not what you say... it’s how you say it...

 

When the conversation becomes not enjoyable...  what keeps you here?

 

Sometimes a person is enjoyable, sometimes they are not...

 

You know?

 

 

Back on point....

Poga,

Did you mention running out of HP getting to 10k’ today in C172?

Before scratching all NA planes off your list... try one with excess HP...

The M20C has plenty of  HP to easily climb to 12.5k’... All of the other Mooneys will do that and more...

See if you can catch a ride...

Best regards,

-a-

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21 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Before scratching all NA planes off your list... try one with excess HP...

The M20C has plenty of  HP to easily climb to 12.5k’... All of the other Mooneys will do that and more...

See if you can catch a ride...

This.

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