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Is a Mooney right for my mission? If so, which one?


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Well, I have the perfect plane for his mission.  It's an Screaming Eagle so it has the UL, Fiki, incredible interior, descent paint and awesome electronics.  Since it took me so long to find this unicorn plane, knowing that it will take anyone tons of time to find such a plane, I'll be kind and offer mine up for sale.  $500,000 to the first one with the cash.

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The reason B-55’s etc are so cheap and have been so for decades compared especially to a heavy single like an A36 or a 210 is because they don’t cost 50% more to own, they cost 300% more to own, your operating two engines and more complex systems, like a gas heater in the nose, and you had best maintain that gas heater.

‘If you could use the load hauling and believe it or not but a decent off airport STOL airplane, get the 210, if your the type that has to drive a Lexus, get the A36, but personally I wouldn’t touch one without a yaw dampener, andI don’t like it even then, arse end yawing around in any turbulence doesn’t  inspire me with confidence, and it makes especially the back seaters sick.

‘It’s why I didn’t buy a Bonanza truth be told.

If your doing mountain flying, your going to be happier with a turbo, yes it can be done without, but it’s done better with a turbo.

‘Lastly I’ll leave you with this, buying is about the cheapest thing about an airplane, buy a mid 60’s twin and maintenance will most likely soon eclipse purchase costs

Edited by A64Pilot
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@ragedracer1977 can probably weigh in on the discussion. He had a very clean M20C that he flew all over the place, everywhere from Texas to CA. He recently upgraded to a beautiful 310 and could give insights on both.

For the cost of operation take a look at posts that @KLRDMD has made. Ken has owned more different planes than most and has shared real cost of operation numbers frequently.

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2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

@ragedracer1977 can probably weigh in on the discussion. He had a very clean M20C that he flew all over the place, everywhere from Texas to CA. He recently upgraded to a beautiful 310 and could give insights on both.

For the cost of operation take a look at posts that @KLRDMD has made. Ken has owned more different planes than most and has shared real cost of operation numbers frequently.

I read about experiences like that but many others who are selling a twin for 100k and have invested over 200k in the past few years.  I agree that there are many twins sold by very wealthy individuals who actually have an open checkbook policy for maintenance.  Those planes could easily be flown for years before real maintenance dollars are spent. But own them and actually fly them for long enough and they could get expensive. 

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9 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

The reason B-55’s etc are so cheap and have been so for decades compared especially to a heavy single like an A36 or a 210 is because they don’t cost 50% more to own, they cost 300% more to own.

Absolutely, 100% not true. I invite anyone to search posts from me on this forum where I outlined specific $$$ comparing the singles and twins I've owned. Now, I've only actually owned and operated 11 singles and 6 twins (2 of which were B55s and 2 of the twins were pressurized) so far in my flying career and I'm picking up my 7th twin in a couple of weeks so some will say my background is lacking in experience on this topic :rolleyes:

Edited by KLRDMD
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7 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Absolutely, 100% not true. I invite anyone to search posts from me on this forum where I outlined specific $$$ comparing the singles and twins I've owned. Now, I've only actually owned and operated 11 singles and 6 twins (2 of which were B55s and 2 of the twins were pressurized) so far in my flying career and I'm picking up my 7th twin in a couple of weeks so some will say my background is lacking in experience on this topic :rolleyes:

What's your thought on relative costs?

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7 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Absolutely, 100% not true. I invite anyone to search posts from me on this forum where I outlined specific $$$ comparing the singles and twins I've owned. Now, I've only actually owned and operated 11 singles and 6 twins (2 of which were B55s and 2 of the twins were pressurized) so far in my flying career and I'm picking up my 7th twin in a couple of weeks so some will say my background is lacking in experience on this topic :rolleyes:

You are blessed with having no sales tax so you can trade planes yearly. How many full years did you own the six previous twins?  How many overhauls were completed during that time?

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Just now, MIm20c said:

You are blessed with having no sales tax so you can trade planes yearly. How many full years did you own the six previous twins?  How many overhauls were completed during that time?

Blessed has nothing to do with it. I choose to live in the state I do for many reasons. Most airplanes I owned a year or two. I have owned two airplanes at once a few times. In 2,500 hours of flying I've only overhauled one engine. But given the average TBO is in the 2,000 hour range, statistically that is reasonable. I sold my Bonanza with 2300 SMOH on a 1700 TBO. Operating engines properly goes a long way toward them living long and happy lives. 

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I flew my 180hp 63 mooney all over the country.  I'm a big guy. 250lbs.  My wife and kids are not.  :lol:

I've been all the way to Florida, Washington state, wisconsin, colorado, etc etc.  Never found an airport short of leadville or telluride I wouldn't go out of at gross. 

Based in Phoenix, I never had a problem hitting MEAs.  I cruised as high as 16.5. took planning to get there, but I could do it. Flew pretty solid IFR for hours when I went to Florida. 

Great airplane.

However.... My family outgrew it. And outgrew it's capabilities.  We traveled so much, we really needed something bigger and more capable.  With a smaller family, a 252 would probably have been where I went, but I went 310 instead.

I've got a 78 T310R with FIKI, onboard radar, basically all the bells and whistles. I don't think there's many days I won't fly. 

For your budget, you can get a very very well equipped 310 and accommodate your growing family.  For reference, I paid less than half your budget for mine. Insurance with literally ZERO twin time was $5300. I had about 800 hours of complex time, but I've only been flying for 4 years. 

Someday, the kids will be gone, and I'll probably find myself in another mooney, but I don't know. I like having the ability to fill up all 6 seats, luggage, and fly 3 hour legs. 

All that said, you can't go wrong starting with a nice mooney. They're comfortable, they fly well, and they're very economical. You can go faster, at less than half the fuel burn and cheaper maintenance. 

If I had to do it again, I'd do it the same way. A less expensive plane to see if we'd "like" traveling by our own airplane. Less expensive maintenance while you're learning how to be an owner.

 

Edited by ragedracer1977
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A Seneca II or better is a good choice for those routes. A stock II will have a SE service ceiling of ~13k and they get better from there. The downside is those little continentals like we have in our K-models are just as expensive to OH as a big 6-cylinder.

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@ragedracer1977 I’ve always enjoyed reading about your adventures. I too would like to upgrade to a twin someday especially since I like flying across Lake Michigan whenever possible. However, now with two small children I will avoid that while they’re in the plane.  I’m interested is what your insurance premium was on the Mooney right before you upgraded?  Please keep posting here often, I really enjoy reading them. 

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9 hours ago, MIm20c said:

@ragedracer1977 I’ve always enjoyed reading about your adventures. I too would like to upgrade to a twin someday especially since I like flying across Lake Michigan whenever possible. However, now with two small children I will avoid that while they’re in the plane.  I’m interested is what your insurance premium was on the Mooney right before you upgraded?  Please keep posting here often, I really enjoy reading them. 

$2300.  Dollar for dollar, the twin is actually slightly cheaper.  The hull value is almost triple what the mooney was. 

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Owning an airplane or car or boat for a year or two doesn’t reflect cost of ownership. You’ll of course argue that you didn’t defer maintenance, but you did.

‘Guy I bought my airplane from owned it for a couple of years and flew it a few hundred hours and stated it only cost him the Annuals.

‘So we can infer from that, that owning a M20J if flown 200 hours a year and an Annual cost $2,000 is only $10 an hour. 

‘Try to explain that the engine cost alone is more than twice that, to say nothing of the prop etc and he’ll say it’s not true, I did it on only $10 an hour.

Normally you’ll take the hit in depreciation on sale, but if your lucky or smart or whatever you ascribe to be, you may buy low and sell high and not take the hit.

‘For instance I met a couple that bought houses and fixed them up while living in them for a year or two and resold them, and always made money on the deal, this was before  2008 though.

I wasn’t there but I’d bet lunch that came to a ugly end in 08 though

Edited by A64Pilot
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6 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Owning an airplane or car or boat for a year or two doesn’t reflect cost of ownership. You’ll of course argue that you didn’t defer maintenance, but you did.

Don’t you think that’s a bit insulting? Of course I did not defer any maintenance.

Tell you what, since you don’t believe my numbers why don’t you post the actual numbers that it costs to own singles and twins from your personal experience then will compare your numbers to mine. Fair enough?

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Some people talk, and some back it up with actual experience. @KLRDMD has more experience than any 20 of us put together. 

And sorry, but I gotta say it... everyone is entitled to their privacy and to manage that as they see fit. But when dispensing advice, transparency is certainly a factor to be considered. So we've got Dr Reed who is publicly sharing his name, location, the N number of his latest ride, (look him up on FlightAware), home airport, etc. Or someone who's primary concern is hiding behind a Montana LLC. 

Of the two, we know one of them is actually a pilot, owns an airplane, or 30, and flies it...

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Sure you guys go buy your old twins and fly them on less than it cost to fly a Mooney. See how long it takes that bubble to burst, if you have a six figure fund to cover the gotcha you’ll be fine, maybe.

You did defer maintenance as by your own admission you only overhauled one engine in that time, and overflew a TBO, if overflying TBO isn’t deferring maintenance, then please tell me what your definition of deferring maintenance is?

Yeah, I’m just an old fat guy in his Mama’s house, I’ve not been a professional pilot and mechanic since 1982, not like you real Pro’s. And no. I’m not posting my personal data just to become some kind of internet celebrity.

Like I said, reach out to AOPA or believe that those sources are delusional if you want to, and you can if fact fly a much more expensive airplane for less money, it’s just all the suckers that don’t know that.

Anyone can get lucky flipping houses or boats or airplanes, most it eventually catches up to them, some it doesn’t. Some smoke their whole lives and get away with it, you can’t determine trends from one case.

Edited by A64Pilot
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I think when buying a airplane, especially a twin, it’s especially important to buy a premium example.  I know for a fact that when my instructor was trying to get his MEI rating he had a really hard time finding one in maintained/safe condition.  He went to four different rental locations and finally found one, with two planes so they would have one available to finish the rating. This is not an uncommon problem with ME training. I’ve never had an issue like that renting SE non complex but the only 182RG rental in the area was also down all the time. 
 

I’m not attacking anyone or their experience. I would never say someone has more more experience than an unknown member let alone 20.  I appreciate everything people provide to this forum from the dr above or dr Peter Garmin. 
 

Truth is someone can own the same long body Mooney for $10k a year all in to $35k all in. Everyone is just providing their personal experience and views, nothing wrong with that. 

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Thank you everyone for the replies - the willingness to share your accumulated knowledge on this forum is very much appreciated. I've read through your replies several times. 

I took yesterday off work and spent the day bouncing around in a 172. Flew KSDL to KSEZ to 40G to KINW to KPAN back to KSDL. Lots of time to play with the G1000 (which is still new to me - my old plane had a 430/530), and to think about what exactly I want in an airplane. 

My thoughts: 

First, nearly all of my hours are on the East coast. Density altitude back at sea level was more of a theory than a reality. Yesterday was stunningly gorgeous in AZ, cool temps up high, and the 172 was wheezing coming out of 40G and around the San Francisco peaks. I got as high as 10,500', and there wasn't too much more power to be had. Bottom line, I need a turbo. 

Second, since I've only recently gotten back into flying, most of my (limited so far) time has been getting to know Phoenix airspace. Getting back in the groove of flying an airplane, radios, etc. Yesterday reminded me that what I really love about flying is going somewhere just for the sake of going somewhere. What did I have to do in Valle, Arizona yesterday? Absolutely nothing, but it looked interesting on the map so off I went. Would I be as comfortable taking that trip in a twin? Maybe not. And I'd be missing something by focusing on only getting to and from my planned destination. I believe it will take me awhile to get comfortable with the complexity and cost of a twin. I need to build another few hundred hours of skills before I get into the multi world, as there is more that can go wrong and everything is happening much faster. 

Third and most importantly is my family. My wife is supportive of me flying again. It will take time to get her comfort level to the point where she will be at ease piling the entire family in the plane for a long XC. That means baby steps with her, and building more time. Time = money, so I need an efficient way to build that time. 

So where am I now  ... twin is off the list. Someday in the future perhaps, but I'm not there yet. A maintenance surprise with a twin is just not a proposition that appeals to me right now. I'd rather spend that money flying. A 210 is also off the list. I don't need that hauling capacity in the near future. When I do, I'll trade up. 

That leaves me really down to the following:

182T (most expensive option it seems, but I've got plenty of 182 time and it would be an easy transition)

231/252 (Never even sat in one, but the more I read the more intrigued I become)

Something Piper - Turbo Arrow or Comanche? (though many seem worn and need of significant upgrades)

So that's where I'm at. Focus for the next few years will be building hours, some business travel, shorter hops with the family until my wife gets 100% comfortable. 

 

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Back in the day I flew all over the west in a C55 Baron, normally aspirated, owned by an uncle. It had the same approach to high altitude life as the Ovation, just put a big enough normally aspirated engine or two on the front. Now I fly a turbo, a 231, and have been all over the Rockies in that as well. The turbo is pretty nice if you are going to transition from the west side of the Rockies (PHX) to the east (i.e. DEN) or vice versa. I flew around the practice areas near PHX quite a bit last year, but the last time I departed on a trip from there was SDL bound for Kansas a few years ago, and as I recall ATC wanted us at 12k going north, and going over the area around Raton we were at 16k to get above some pretty good summer turbulence. I don't think even my uncle's C55 would have done those things very well, most of the trips were east-west. If you are going north and crossing the Divide frequently you have a different issue. Turbo is a good choice. 252 is a good choice. But don't neglect the 231, the UL is generally really good, the engine loves to run LOP, and it can do the flight levels easily if you get the Merlyn wastegate and intercooler equipped version. I can generally haul 470 lbs. plus full fuel, which is another 456 lbs., and that is plenty of fuel, at least 5 hours. I would take the 252 over the 231 because of the 24 volt capability of the 252, but they are not easy to find in this market, in good condition.

The caution I have for you is you are going to have plenty of weather to deal with, both summer (afternoon convection) and winter (winds and waves), and you have to be prepared to just not go many times.

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I came close to pulling the trigger on three 231, 262, 252 aircraft over the past 3 years. In the end it was two young kids at home (O2 needed for high altitude) that made me pass. First was an at tbo 252 for 100k, second was a 231 with a fresh factory reman and beautiful panel for 130k, and the last one a year ago was a nice 262 with tks for 100k.  The last one hurts the most with the prices skyrocketing.  The mid body aircraft might have the best balance of all the Mooney aircraft. 

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