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In the process of buying N58089 and I need to upgrade the panel. First, I need an engine monitor. I'm on a budget (who isn't?) so what would you do, in what order?

Heres some pics from the GMax website:

 

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F8DB7AFF-E9C2-43E0-A6A0-EAC22237F5DE.jpeg

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Wow! A Sperry weather radar. Hard to tell from the photos but it appears to work? If it does, I would keep it. Nothing better than a combination of lightning detector and on-board radar. 
You have the same problem I had when I bought my K. No room to add anything unless you remove something first. Personally I would ditch the ADF and the old B/K RNAV. That should free up enough panel space for an engine monitor. 
You will see lots of opinions on where it should go. I prefer to have it on the pilot side but that restricts you to a monitor that will fit in a standard instrument hole. The larger monitors are easy to see from cross-cockpit and should fit on the right side if you moved the #2 NavCom to the center stack.

Or if you moved the Stormscope over to the right (and ditched the ADF) you would have room to install an EDM830 or 900 on the pilot side. (Or a GI275 EIS or CG30 combo)

Lots of options. And congrats on the Rocket!

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I understand about budget but I would go with primary instrument replacement especially if you can do some work like removal existing instruments and such.

The way I went few years ago on my M20F was with EI CGR30P. It is great instrument and fits to standard 3 1/8" hole and you could ditch your ADF and place it there. CGR30 has no enough "channels" to replace all you would need so you would need CGR30C considering you have turbo. with my F, I needed only two tank fuel gage which I satisfied with Aerospace Logic FL202 gage.

If you want to spend more and recut the panel, EI MVP50 or JPI units are good choice, although I have no experience with JPI. 

 

 

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Kind of a tough panel to know where to start.  Personally I’d dump the radar and stick a JPI 730 in its place, swap the adf indicator with a backup AI and fly it that way for awhile. From there make a big jump and get a 10 inch g3x, g5, and gfc500 AP.  Sell off the 730 display (in high demand w/ people upgrading from 700/800) and connect the wires to the Garmin EIS. 

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Id do an insight g4 for now, and get rid of all those bricks on the right. You are only going to use and need the GNX375, kma24, 2 comms, 1 nav, and the ap. The rest can be dumped. While youre doing the insight, throw a g5 as a backup. That should give you plenty of safety, reliability, and  time until you finally are ready to do a full panel.

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I was surprised- more than one person has suggested keeping the weather radar. Yes, it does work. The previous owner says he relied on the strike finder more. I don't intend to fly near convective activity, but then again, who does?

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll be sure to post before/after pics as I go. Maybe first order of business is sell the house and move in to that spot down by the river I saw the other day? (I have a van already!) :D

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5 hours ago, squeaky.stow said:

Wow! A Sperry weather radar. Hard to tell from the photos but it appears to work? If it does, I would keep it. Nothing better than a combination of lightning detector and on-board radar. 
You have the same problem I had when I bought my K. No room to add anything unless you remove something first. Personally I would ditch the ADF and the old B/K RNAV. That should free up enough panel space for an engine monitor. 
You will see lots of opinions on where it should go. I prefer to have it on the pilot side but that restricts you to a monitor that will fit in a standard instrument hole. The larger monitors are easy to see from cross-cockpit and should fit on the right side if you moved the #2 NavCom to the center stack.

Or if you moved the Stormscope over to the right (and ditched the ADF) you would have room to install an EDM830 or 900 on the pilot side. (Or a GI275 EIS or CG30 combo)

Lots of options. And congrats on the Rocket!

Yes I noticed that a lot of the segment lights? are out on the KNS 80. It's essentially useless right now, as far as I can tell.

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5 hours ago, Igor_U said:

I understand about budget but I would go with primary instrument replacement especially if you can do some work like removal existing instruments and such.

The way I went few years ago on my M20F was with EI CGR30P. It is great instrument and fits to standard 3 1/8" hole and you could ditch your ADF and place it there. CGR30 has no enough "channels" to replace all you would need so you would need CGR30C considering you have turbo. with my F, I needed only two tank fuel gage which I satisfied with Aerospace Logic FL202 gage.

If you want to spend more and recut the panel, EI MVP50 or JPI units are good choice, although I have no experience with JPI. 

 

 

I have the Monroy tanks so I would need 4 fuel inputs, I believe.

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The weather radar is such old technology... it will sound a whole lot better than it can actually perform...

Look for two solutions, Strategic and tactical...  ADSB-in, and strike finder are examples...

Most Mooney Radars have been pulled for various reasons... including weight...

Its full removal requires a touch of skin replacement...

I saw one Mooney going through the surgery in Florida, at Jesse Saint’s place...

 

+1 for primary engine gauges if in today’s budget... 

If not...

Any decent used monitor for all six cylinders and TC...  

CHT, EGT, TIT...

FF and totalizer...  (really good for not running out of gas)

 

When the budget improves...  join the research discussions for JPI, EI, Big G, and Insight... (engine monitors)

Hold off spending until the first annual... gives you a year to figure out what you want, and a buffer if something breaks...

PP thoughts only, not a financial statistician...

Best regards,

-a-

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5 hours ago, MIm20c said:

Kind of a tough panel to know where to start.  Personally I’d dump the radar and stick a JPI 730 in its place, swap the adf indicator with a backup AI and fly it that way for awhile. From there make a big jump and get a 10 inch g3x, g5, and gfc500 AP.  Sell off the 730 display (in high demand w/ people upgrading from 700/800) and connect the wires to the Garmin EIS. 

Given the choice, I'd keep the radar and strike finder. But, man, does that radar crt take up a lot of real estate. There are nav displays that paint wx as an added service right?

I'm learning about GA avionics. Most of my experience (99%) is military or airline...

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2 minutes ago, carusoam said:

The weather radar is such old technology... it will sound a whole lot better than it can actually perform...

Look for two solutions, Strategic and tactical...  ADSB-in, and strike finder are examples...

Most Mooney Radars have been pulled for various reasons... including weight...

Its full removal requires a touch of skin replacement...

I saw one Mooney going through the surgery in Florida, at Jesse Saint’s place...

 

+1 for primary engine gauges if in today’s budget... 

If not...

Any decent used monitor for all six cylinders and TC...  

CHT, EGT, TIT...

FF and totalizer...  (really good for not running out of gas)

 

When the budget improves...  join the research discussions for JPI, EI, Big G, and Insight... (engine monitors)

Hold off spending until the first annual... gives you a year to figure out what you want, and a buffer if something breaks...

PP thoughts only, not a financial statistician...

Best regards,

-a-

First annual is in August. It was opened up for the pre-buy somewhat, but the local shop is really backlogged and I have to take my place in the queue. Annual due in August. Removing the radar from the right wing will require skin work, you're right. I have no idea how much that will be. All great suggestions! Thanks!

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8 minutes ago, Stetson20 said:

First annual is in August. It was opened up for the pre-buy somewhat, but the local shop is really backlogged and I have to take my place in the queue. Annual due in August. Removing the radar from the right wing will require skin work, you're right. I have no idea how much that will be. All great suggestions! Thanks!

See if @Jesse Saint is around to discuss what is involved in the radar removal...  it has been a couple of weeks since he lasted stopped by...

The small, fixed dish challenge... able to fit into the wing’s leading edge... takes away from its skill set...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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18 minutes ago, Stetson20 said:

Given the choice, I'd keep the radar and strike finder.

I agree. I have both XM and ADSB in for weather radar. They are good, but not the real thing. The two big disadvantages of those are the delay (up to 15 minutes) and the fact that the picture is from a ground radar so you really are just guessing about the vertical development. 
My budget after initial purchase was also limited so I went with the “if it ain’t broke” philosophy. As much as I would like a primary monitor, all of my analog gauges still work perfectly, so my EDM830 serves me well. 
I also have the Monroy tanks. Your fuel senders don’t change with that installation so your analog fuel gauges are not very accurate. If you fill the mains, the fuel will gradually migrate to the long range tanks, so your gauges will under-read until about half tanks. Folks here that have primary monitors with digital fuel senders may be able to comment on this, but I believe they can be recalibrated to account for the larger tank capacity. I just keep a careful accounting of fuel uplift vs fuel burned and allow for lots of reserve.

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I understand you have a budget, but I’ll tell you how I would spend your money.  And yes, you’ll need to move into that van down by the river...

You need to scrap 75% of that panel. If it works for now, fly it and see how the first annual goes while you save up.  

So... cut a whole new pretty panel with only what you need.  My first choice would be G3X10” with eis and G5 backup.  Plus two new navcoms.  Unfortunately, I bet you have kfc or kap AP and can’t use the G3x/G5 to drive it.  So if that’s true, 2xgi-275s and a gi275 or 7” g3x for eis.  Plus the two navcoms.  Either of these options is ~$30k +/-$5k, but you’ll be so much happier than piecemeal.

Get an air mattress for the van.

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I was in your situation a few years ago. When I bought my 252, the panel looked like something from Apollo 13. It was full. And to me it all looked like potential useful load.

I flew it the way it was for about a year and in that time, collected all the parts and pieces I needed for a new panel. Many of them used. And then went to work. It takes time and a lot of money regardless. But in the end we pulled more than 30 lbs out of the panel.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/1/2021 at 11:36 PM, Ragsf15e said:

I understand you have a budget, but I’ll tell you how I would spend your money.  And yes, you’ll need to move into that van down by the river...

You need to scrap 75% of that panel. If it works for now, fly it and see how the first annual goes while you save up.  

So... cut a whole new pretty panel with only what you need.  My first choice would be G3X10” with eis and G5 backup.  Plus two new navcoms.  Unfortunately, I bet you have kfc or kap AP and can’t use the G3x/G5 to drive it.  So if that’s true, 2xgi-275s and a gi275 or 7” g3x for eis.  Plus the two navcoms.  Either of these options is ~$30k +/-$5k, but you’ll be so much happier than piecemeal.

Get an air mattress for the van.

Closing on the plane today, so by the end of the day, it's officially mine (and the banks- mostly the banks)..

So I do have a KFC 150 with altitude hold, flight director and gs coupled. Also a KAS 297 altitude preselect which came back inop after the GNX 375 install (suspected wiring issue). The previous owner (I don't blame him) decided not to pursue it as he was selling the plane.

So my question is what equipment is forward compatible. I've been reading/watching videos on the G5 and GI 275.. Not sure what the xgi 275 is?

I like the idea of a clean panel so something with nav/com integrated in to the map display control head sounds appealing...

Just making conversation while I wait for the closing and training flights to commence. :D

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1 hour ago, Stetson20 said:

Closing on the plane today, so by the end of the day, it's officially mine (and the banks- mostly the banks)..

So I do have a KFC 150 with altitude hold, flight director and gs coupled. Also a KAS 297 altitude preselect which came back inop after the GNX 375 install (suspected wiring issue). The previous owner (I don't blame him) decided not to pursue it as he was selling the plane.

So my question is what equipment is forward compatible. I've been reading/watching videos on the G5 and GI 275.. Not sure what the xgi 275 is?

I like the idea of a clean panel so something with nav/com integrated in to the map display control head sounds appealing...

Just making conversation while I wait for the closing and training flights to commence. :D

Congratulations!  Aircraft ownership is awesome 95% of the time!

I just meant two GI275s.  The GI 275 is compatible with your kfc150 autopilot, whereas the G5 is not.  If you were to replace your instruments with 2 GI 275s, you could remove all your legacy 6 pack gages.  Adi, hsi, asi, altimeter, vsi, etc.  Depending on other system requirements (speedbrakes?) you might also be able to get rid of your vacuum pump.  The GI275s also back each other up and have battery backup.

Enjoy the new airplane!

 

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2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Congratulations!  Aircraft ownership is awesome 95% of the time!

I got my J in January and feel like that 5% has kicked my but the last few weeks, came down for some engine trouble (clogged injector) then the EDM 900 needed an update (that when performed bricked it) so pulled it out and sent back to JPI. but once it came back and I got the plane back all done it was great to take a 400nm trip to see some family.

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5 hours ago, Stetson20 said:

I like the idea of a clean panel so something with nav/com integrated in to the map display control head sounds appealing...

This screams GTN 750!  Slide the GNX 375 down underneath it and that would be a beautiful little radio stack.  People are upgrading their "legacy" GTN 750s to GTN 750 Xi, so there is a relatively active used market that could nab you one for around $10,000.  You could add dual G5s to the left side and be set for years until the money is there to go nuts with 10" screens and whatnot.  Or GI 275 if you don't want to go without your flight director for the time being.

But I do agree you should add an engine monitor pronto.  If you're going to add a 10" screen later and you know you want to use the integrated engine monitor with that, then go with non-primary monitors as a stop-gap, like the EDM-830.  Otherwise go primary and step up to an EDM-900, MVP-50, or CGR-30P/C combo.  (The latter will lock you into round instruments, which you may or may not want when everything else is eventually going to be a slab of rectangular glass).

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5 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Congratulations!  Aircraft ownership is awesome 95% of the time!

I just meant two GI275s.  The GI 275 is compatible with your kfc150 autopilot, whereas the G5 is not.  If you were to replace your instruments with 2 GI 275s, you could remove all your legacy 6 pack gages.  Adi, hsi, asi, altimeter, vsi, etc.  Depending on other system requirements (speedbrakes?) you might also be able to get rid of your vacuum pump.  The GI275s also back each other up and have battery backup.

Enjoy the new airplane!

 

I think, at a minimum, an engine monitor and a 2nd AI (G5 good candidate) to start. ADF is going, as well as the RNAV unit. I also need some sort of fuel metering totalizer? With the Monroy tanks, I'm wondering how I will keep accurate an accurate fuel tally. Ideas?

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1 hour ago, Stetson20 said:

I think, at a minimum, an engine monitor and a 2nd AI (G5 good candidate) to start. ADF is going, as well as the RNAV unit. I also need some sort of fuel metering totalizer? With the Monroy tanks, I'm wondering how I will keep accurate an accurate fuel tally. Ideas?

I have the Monroy tanks and an EDM-730 (which I just upgraded to an EDM-830).  The EDM has fuel flow and the fuel capacity can be configured by the pilot in the factory setup menus.  Mine was set by the prior owners to 93.0 gallons capacity, even though it actually has 94, I assume they had some sort of safety margin in mind.  With fuel flow, and as long as I remember to tell the EDM whenever I add fuel to the tanks, I have found it to be very accurate.  I personally think having four separate sensors for each of the main and long-range tanks would be overkill.

And the way I gauge its accuracy is, based on how much fuel the JPI says I have, I estimate how many gallons it will take to top it off, read how many gallons I actually add off the pump, and those numbers are always within 1 or 2 gallons of each other.

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