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Is it a sin to buy a Cirrus?


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11 hours ago, N231BN said:

I emailed a salesman at CAV Ice this week regarding FIKI certification on A36 Bonanzas.

 

Did they state what basic ice protection would cost to add to the 36?  

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Yes.  It is a mortal sin to even have Cirrus thoughts.

YES! Even such thoughts are blasphemous. Now, thou must seek forgiveness. Book of Laminar Flow, 3:35.

My father used to tell the story about his father. Seems my grandfather was rather well off and favored driving Packards. One day a neighbor was berating Packards to my grandfather who replied, "Then

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I was inquiring as to the cost to upgrade an existing system to FIKI. There are many variables but an estimate for a particular A36 was around 26k depending on labor.

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Just now, N231BN said:

I was inquiring as to the cost to upgrade an existing system to FIKI. There are many variables but an estimate for a particular A36 was around 26k depending on labor.

Wow- 26k for a bonanza but 72k for a mooney? Why such a dramatic price variability?

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Just now, aviatoreb said:

Wow- 26k for a bonanza but 72k for a mooney? Why such a dramatic price variability?

Looks to me like it's 26K to upgrade a Bo from inadvertent to FIKI, and 72K to install from nothing on a Mooney (but is it FIKI or not? What is "basic ice protection"?).

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$72,000 is a new FIKI system installed on a Mooney. 

Bonanzas may be different but to turn a inadvertent system to a FIKI on a Mooney requires removing the existing system and replacing everything.

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26 minutes ago, Hank said:

Looks to me like it's 26K to upgrade a Bo from inadvertent to FIKI, and 72K to install from nothing on a Mooney (but is it FIKI or not? What is "basic ice protection"?).

I think most people consider inadvertent systems "basic ice protection".

It varies a lot from one manufacturer to another. A Cirrus made big obvious improvements when they went FIKI. 

 

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24 minutes ago, Tim Jodice said:

$72,000 is a new FIKI system installed on a Mooney. 

Bonanzas may be different but to turn a inadvertent system to a FIKI on a Mooney requires removing the existing system and replacing everything.

AFAIK (which, admittedly, isn’t much...) The only difference is a second pump and where the pressure sensing (and hence hoses) are located.  The panels, spray bar, prop slinger and proportioning units are all the same between the two.  Maybe I’m missing something?

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The Mooney panels are different between the FIKI and inadvertent. It would not be cost effective to upgrade units. Not sure about the bonanza. However, a lot of the desirable 36’s have tip tanks et al that would disqualify it anyway. 
 

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9 hours ago, M016576 said:

AFAIK (which, admittedly, isn’t much...) The only difference is a second pump and where the pressure sensing (and hence hoses) are located.  The panels, spray bar, prop slinger and proportioning units are all the same between the two.  Maybe I’m missing something?

The following items would need to be installed on a Bonanza assuming it has the newer (early 90's) titanium panels:

Both main pumps

Dual windshield pumps

TKS filters

Dual solenoids

LH mid wing panel

Heated stall vane

Control panel

Furthermore, the aircraft needs to have the B&C Standby Alternator installed. That is not included in the 26k as the aircraft we were discussing already has it. Frankly, the cost is about what I expected it to be and could easily add that much value to the airplane.

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1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

The Mooney panels are different between the FIKI and inadvertent. It would not be cost effective to upgrade units. Not sure about the bonanza. However, a lot of the desirable 36’s have tip tanks et al that would disqualify it anyway. 
 

That's what I hear. They look the same though to the untrained eye.  Same coverage. Unlike say on the Cirrus where the no fiki version has noticeably less wing coverage.

It costs more on a Mooney to "convert" a not fiki but tks airplane to a tks airplane since it involves first removing the old system.  So entirely impractical.

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The no-hazard system and FIKI system for both Mooney and Bonanza are completely different.  The FIKI systems use different porous panels, dual windshield pumps, dual solenoid valves, dual metering pumps (different output than the no-hazard system), different wiring bundles, added heated stall warning, different control panel, dual alternator requirement, different prop slinger ring (depending on engine and prop), different proportioning units (different output to the panels). 

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9 minutes ago, CAV Ice said:

The no-hazard system and FIKI system for both Mooney and Bonanza are completely different.  The FIKI systems use different porous panels, dual windshield pumps, dual solenoid valves, dual metering pumps (different output than the no-hazard system), different wiring bundles, added heated stall warning, different control panel, dual alternator requirement, different prop slinger ring (depending on engine and prop), different proportioning units (different output to the panels). 

It can't be much different. The website shows only 0.3 gallon more in the FIKI system but the same 2.5 hour run time.

https://www.cav-systems.com/retrofit/mooney-m20/

 

https://www.cav-systems.com/retrofit/mooney-m20-fiki/

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@Tim Jodice output of the main metering pumps and calibration of the proportioning units is based on panel design (older steel or riveted panels as compared to newer titanium and laser welded panels), line length for the installation and panel length.  Nothing to do with fluid quantity. 

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13 minutes ago, CAV Ice said:

@Tim Jodice output of the main metering pumps and calibration of the proportioning units is based on panel design (older steel or riveted panels as compared to newer titanium and laser welded panels), line length for the installation and panel length.  Nothing to do with fluid quantity. 

Thank you for the clarification. I think I speak for others on MooneySpace thank you for being so active answering questions.

FIKI or not your systems are awesome. 

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On 3/28/2021 at 6:15 PM, Hank said:

To me, they advertise a glam lifestyle that doesn't attract me, and they emphasize the chute over the airplane and it's flying characteristics. 

All the chatter about Cirri is takeoff, turn on auto pilot, watch a movie, and disconnect auto pilot on final to land. No thanks.

Actually that's not even slightly true.  I've owned an SR20 and SR22, and a 1982 201J.  They don't "emphasize" the chute, they talk about it as a safety item.  Just like Mooney "emphasized" the roll cage.   

It's also not true that it's about turn on AP, blah blah blah.  That's typical ignorant talk.  I loved my Mooney, but the Cirrus is a different traveling machine and once you fly one, at night over the mountains, with a CHUTE you'll understand.  I had to sell my 22 to my partner last year and looking for another AC, and a Mooney is in the picture, but so funny the Cirrus ignorance when folks just don't know.  I mean, they have only sold 8000 in the last 20 years, and Mooney couldn't make 10 4 years ago.

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Just now, SalMCFI said:

I mean, they have only sold 8000 in the last 20 years, and Mooney couldn't make 10 4 years ago.

Please let Porsche and Ferrari know they should shut down because GM sold more Chevy Cruzes than they did their cars . . .   Because it must all boil down to who sells more, right?

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2 hours ago, SalMCFI said:

Actually that's not even slightly true.  I've owned an SR20 and SR22, and a 1982 201J.  They don't "emphasize" the chute, they talk about it as a safety item.  Just like Mooney "emphasized" the roll cage.   

It's also not true that it's about turn on AP, blah blah blah.  That's typical ignorant talk.  I loved my Mooney, but the Cirrus is a different traveling machine and once you fly one, at night over the mountains, with a CHUTE you'll understand.  I had to sell my 22 to my partner last year and looking for another AC, and a Mooney is in the picture, but so funny the Cirrus ignorance when folks just don't know.  I mean, they have only sold 8000 in the last 20 years, and Mooney couldn't make 10 4 years ago.


Welcome aboard Sal,

I think you are mistaken...

Let me get you hat for you...  :)

Best regards,

-a-

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Going to a Cirrus from a Mooney is like a second wife. You learn to appreciate both of them!
 

Sounds like an expensive lesson!
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6 minutes ago, N9201A said:


Sounds like an expensive lesson!

Not really. My first wife had cancer. The most important thing is to not compare the two. You chose them for who they are. Airplanes are the same way. Usually when you talk to a pilot that has flown competitors, Cirrus and Mooney or Airbus and Boeing they will appreciate both designs. You really only run into zealots with people who have little to no experience in both.

 

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The Cirrus door seal leaks and is a automotive design joke.

I often have service centers ask me to redesign.

The Columbia had inflatable door seals , different dim each side.

Iam the oem mfg for the 300-350-400

 

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