Value in 2021 - M20C out of annual

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Stephen Slate said:

Great question, I am the guy who enjoys a project.  I am thinking if I can get it for under 30K, and the mechanic doesn't find anything crazy, I might go for it.  

I'm going to be blunt: This isn't a project, it's a disaster for a first time owner. Run, Forest, run!

$30K isn't ANYWHERE near low enough to even consider. Seriously.

My read/opinion is that you have a limited budget to buy and think you can put sweat equity in and 'make up for it.'. Sorry, not going to happen for a first time buyer and not an A&P.  I had to wait many years for finances to align such that I could buy an airplane to FLY; I, too, toyed with the idea of a 'fixer-upper'

Good luck, whatever you choose to do.

[gsxrpilot]

14 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

An extra 25k spent now might save you from years of aggravation. 

And you'll still spend the $25K before it's really flyable.

[0TreeLemur]

The law of airplane purchasing:  It is worth your time to buy as much airplane as you can afford, with the features you want, because whomever got it into that condition will not recoup their investment.  

The corollary of this law is, if you buy somebody else's neglect, you will pay for it, and nothing in aviation is cheap.  You might pay with your life.

I agree with @MikeOH -  RUN!!!

[carusoam]

Looks like we have reached an interesting point in the economic cycle...

Airplanes are being dragged out of their deep sleep and getting listed for sale...

People are digging through the back lots to see what’s hiding back there...

And there are people looking seriously at them...

Interest rates have been kept low again today (-J. Powell, fed reserve) and expect to stay this way for the rest of 2021...

Best regards,

-a-

[Rusty Pilot]

Stephen, my first priority in choosing my C was one that was flown regularly.  Big benefit.  Depending on where you are located try to visit the filed, meet some Mooney owners and get up for a flight.  I assume you have your Private Pilot certificate.  Note, you will need transition training, complex endorsement and will likely face high insurance costs for a few years.

[Greg Ellis]

12 hours ago, Stephen Slate said:

These replies have been great.  The current owner has loved having the plane, but hasn't done anything to show that affection...  ie, things are dirty and stinky with disaster potentially lurking at every bend, not unlike my lower intestine.  I know the registration is expired, the annual is out but he's a confident guy who loves his plane and it seems to love him, so he flies it with reckless abandon.  I am going to run it through the mechanic and see what it will take to get her back in annual and go from there.  Sound smart?  

Nothing in this reply tells me that you are dealing with an owner who loves his airplane.  It sounds more like a guy who cannot afford the airplane now, or never could afford it, or circumstances changed where he cannot take care of it.  This is not someone who loves this airplane.  Someone who loves the plane would either do what it takes to keep the airplane in good condition (in annual, etc...) or sell it before it became "dirty and stinky with disaster lurking...." not someone that would fly with reckless abandon and fly out of annual etc... I may be wrong, never having met the owner, but it sounds like someone who just liked the idea of telling people..."yeah, I own a plane...."

With other airplanes available that have been loved and cared for, I am not sure I would proceed with this one.  As many have stated you will spend a fortune getting this airplane up to the point where you want it to be.  Your pocketbook better be ready to handle the outlay of expenses it will take to get this plane up to par.  You can take all that money and buy an airplane that is turnkey and ready to go.

[JWJR]

Short answer
It’s not worth 50K
Not signed off?
2000 hours is a little on the high side for a plane not flown regularly

Long answer /advice (assuming your Interested in purchasing a Mooney )

Flying a plane out of annual without a ferry permit is a recipe for trouble/ tragedy. ( I’ll withhold my nasty harsh opinions around this)

Do you have a mechanic with Mooney knowledge and experience? If not start there and talk with some folks and see if you can find one with a reputation for being competent,capable and reasonable. This is paramount. Don’t assume they all know what they are doing and will do it right the first time and charge you a fair price. I’ve been billed $300.00 for time on the phone tracking down a $80 dollar part. During an engine installation post overhaul my plug leads were placed on the plugs but he forgot to tighten the top four lead nuts - he blamed it on lunch break. Engine was smooth during taxi but ran rough at run up. This was twenty years ago ...I’ll never again have an annual or any work done that I don’t assist with period. Saves money but more importantly peace of mind.

Over the last thirty years I’ve seen numerous great deals on aircraft. Usually they were long time owners that kept up on maintenance then sell due age/medical and sell to someone on the same field or in the region. Some lose interest and fly less and less then let the plane sit a few years before finally letting it go. I’ve seen numerous friends buy these planes get them back in to airworthy ( add marvel to oil run up and taxi 1/2 hour then change oil ,fuel drained and refill,new battery,all hose lines,tubes,tires , rocker box gaskets, push rod tube seals,spark plugs ,bleed brake fluid ,air filter, mags iran ,alternator belt, bore scope the cylinders and muffler) have long term positive trouble free ownership experiences fly 400 to 1800 hours ( No the cams did not spall even though most sat in hangers for many years unused and not pickled)

Network as much as you can and check the info boards at the FBO’s. There are many owners out there that do not fly much and are on the fence sellers that might decide to sell without the hassles of commercial listings or getting a broker.

Do your research and learn as much as you can so your knowledgeable when dealing with your AP/IA here are a few things

Metal in screen. Often not checked regularly due to limited access - not to be confused with oil filter

Fuel tank leaks

Steel tube corrosion

Spar cap corrosion

Gear preload tension

Gear puck condition

Condition of hoses



I’ve seen more fellas buy a plane in annual and have just a pre buy inspection done experience grief and surprises later than ones that bought a plane that was sitting a few years and negotiated a full annual as a condition of the sale.

Good luck. I’ve owned a few planes over the years and my Mooney is by far the most reliable and enjoyable of the bunch.


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[Tcraft938]

As a D converted to C owner, I can give a thumbs up to the model.  Considering what I paid for it a couple of years ago for mid-time engine, new prop, GNS430 two G5's and ADSB, the $50,000 asking price for the one you're looking at is more like the price of what you need to put into it.  An engine at TBO that has not run or run much in 10 years is a gamble I would not be willing to take.  If I would take the gamble I would never fly it at night, in IFR or put my family in it.  If REALLY wanted it, I would be offering in the $20 to $25K range and planning on ordering a factory reman or having the current engine overhauled by a reputable shop, but chances are they are going to find corrosion inside.  So there goes around $25K for the engine.  If the prop needs significant work, might as well replace to not have the recurrent AD, that's $9-$12K depending on what you choose.  Then there are things like the sealant in the tanks to worry about and if that needs redone, $7,400, all the accessories, etc.  Plan on a reserve of $5 to 10K to have on hand for the incidental aged and unused items that will likely break.  I think you can see where the "needs $50K of work" comes from.  Sure, there is a chance the engine runs fine with little issue for another 500 hours.  There's also a chance a rich old woman with one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel falls in love with me and gives me a TBM 950 for my birthday.  LOL   

Seriously, when I looked at a few similar planes, my A&P advised, "why should you finance someone elses risk?  He thinks it's worth $50K make them prove it, give him three months to get if airworthy and tell him you want him to put 50 hours on it and you want to see the oil analysis reports from the two oil changes during the 50 hours, then we'll talk $50K, otherwise it's $20K and I will take the risks and you walk away.  If lucky you have a plane and a hell of a lot of gas an reserve money, if not lucky you will have a very nice airworthy airplane and no gas money".  

I actually tried that tactic and the owner of the "other than Mooney" took it as a challenge and going to show me, so he accepted.  Eight hours in, the engine came apart and safely deadsticked back to the airport, no deal.  The A&P may have saved my life, that could have been me on the way home with it.  Buying a plane is just another aviation lesson in identifying the mission and managing risk.  Do you want to get in and fly for hundreds of hours, or do you want to take the time and money to personalize everything to your personal taste, realizing you'll never get the full amount back?  As for risk.... let's face it there are many NTSB reports of brand new engines with few hours on them coming apart too.  All up to you and what you're up for.  But if you pay the guy $50,000 for the plane as you described it, he owes you big time. 

[steingar]

An airplane out of annual is scrap and worth not one penny more in the Book of Steingar.  If these jokers really want to sell the airplane they can get it in annual.  If not, don't walk, run.  The owner is either flying it out of annual, meaning he doesn't give a crap about the rules (bad sign), or he's just been spooling up the engine now and then (worse).

I bought an aircraft hat wasn't flown much.  But it had annual inspections every year, indeed it was taken apart when I inspected it.  Mooney made lots of airplanes.  Find another.

Oh, and repeat after me: there are not bargains in aviation...there are no bargains in aviation...

[dzeleski]

13 hours ago, Stephen Slate said:

These replies have been great.  The current owner has loved having the plane, but hasn't done anything to show that affection...  ie, things are dirty and stinky with disaster potentially lurking at every bend, not unlike my lower intestine.  I know the registration is expired, the annual is out but he's a confident guy who loves his plane and it seems to love him, so he flies it with reckless abandon.  I am going to run it through the mechanic and see what it will take to get her back in annual and go from there.  Sound smart?  

He doesnt love that airplane and it doesnt love him. You have no idea what hes done or not done to the airplane to keep it flying illegally. I honestly would not even bother talking to a mechanic. Dont fall in love with the first airplane you see.

[1964-M20E]

I say $20 to $25k max for the plane.  You will spend $50k over the next 5 years on the plane for any combination of radios, AP or engine.

1. Get a good PPI (pre-purchase inspection) turn the PPI into an annual.  Required in this case so you can fly it home.
2. Start at $30k and negotiate down from there for any airworthy issues found during the PPI this includes AP issues, any AD's not compiled with.
3. Make sure the current owner agrees to this plan if not move on to the next one.  Essentially you agree to pay him $30k and you get a flying plane with no airworthy issues and all ADs complied with.
4. The Britain AP parts are hard to come by especially the servo boots so the AP may be toast.   A new AP costs plenty.  Although it is not necessary it is very nice to have on long flights.
5. The PPI / annual is probably minimum $6k maybe a little higher up to $10k.
6. I am always in favor of someone taking a less than loved plane and bring it back to it's full glory.
7. Has the plane been in a hangar for the past 5 to 10 years?
8. Where is the plane located?
9. Go into this project with you eyes open knowing you will spend money on it.

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

I say $20 to $25k max for the plane.  You will spend $50k over the next 5 years on the plane for any combination of radios, AP or engine.

So when it's all said and done, you'll have spent $75K for a $45K airplane. Not to mention all the down time that you could have been flying.

[TTaylor]

It is a $45K airplane that needs a $25K engine and $10K of additional work (maybe more). $45K-25K-10K = $10K is what it is worth.  Walk away unless you can get it under $10K.  Planes like this end up with the reaper because the owners think they have something special and are delusional. Or they end up with someone who doesn't have a clue and wants to dump a whole lot of money into something that they shouldn't. 

 

 

[ZuluZulu]

Project planes are for people who are either A&Ps, have a relationship with a mechanic who will let them work on the plane and give quality supervision and sign-offs (and already have at least a modicum of mechanical aptitude), or have a lot of money to spend.  Everyone else, especially buyers on a budget who do not meet one of the three criteria above, should not buy a project plane without large reserves set aside.  If you can't set large reserves aside for whatever reason, buy something else, join a flying club, or keep renting.  IMO.

[Skates97]

18 hours ago, Stephen Slate said:

These replies have been great.  The current owner has loved having the plane, but hasn't done anything to show that affection...  ie, things are dirty and stinky with disaster potentially lurking at every bend, not unlike my lower intestine.  I know the registration is expired, the annual is out but he's a confident guy who loves his plane and it seems to love him, so he flies it with reckless abandon.  I am going to run it through the mechanic and see what it will take to get her back in annual and go from there.  Sound smart?  

He may love having a plane, but he doesn't love the plane. Two different things...

My hangar neighbor has a Beech A36, he loves his plane. Up until he and his wife were in a bad car accident in December he flew 2-3 times a week. After every flight he wiped down the wings and prop for any bugs, took a look under the cowling for leaks, etc... He not only loves having a plane, he loves the plane, and it shows. Find someone who loves their plane and buy from them.

16 hours ago, MIm20c said:

When looking at a cheaper aircraft like an older Mooney I’ve found you can make huge jumps in aircraft quality with very little extra outlay. Keep looking for a different aircraft that has received more love. An extra 25k spent now might save you from years of aggravation. 

A difference of even $5-10k will make a difference and save lots of money.

It is said often on these forums to buy the best example of the model you can afford. About 4 years ago I bought a converted D, it had old avionics, no autopilot, no engine monitor, but it was regularly flown and the owner was only selling because he had purchased an Ovation. I put shoulder harnesses in it right away, then later an engine monitor and a "newer" radio. In the meantime I was putting 100+ hours a year on it and loving every minute of it. There have been no big surprises. There have been incremental upgrades with a major one last year further updating the engine monitor and adding G5's, GPS, and a new audio panel. Then end of April it goes in to have a GFC500 installed. Once that is done I will have spent more on upgrades than I did when I bought the plane.

I don't regret any of the money I have spent and know I will never get it back, but I am spending it because it makes my flying more enjoyable. I also don't regret buying a plane without an autopilot or engine monitor. Those things would have been great, but I couldn't afford it at the time, so I bought the best, currently flying, loved plane I could afford and went from there.

[David Lloyd]

Know what you're buying. ADs and annual inspections need to be current. Also the big things: no leaking tanks, corrosion, etc. If you intend on up-to-date radios and a new motor, it is a lot cheaper to let someone else buy them and you buy their airplane.  Past that, any airplane is a gamble. I have noticed, anytime my airplane sits for more than two weeks, something is likely to break the next trip.  Stuff breaks whether it flies or not. Airplane sitting for 10 years likely has a bunch of stuff that will break in the first few months of use.

After running a couple engines well past TBO with no problems, the next factory reman on the same airframe began self-destructing after 550 hours. Every hundred hours or so after that, it was another cylinder with the exhaust valve and guide severely worn.  Eight cylinders over 1550 hours, I gave up.  Western Skyways overhaul ran for 1500 hours problem free until I sold that plane. That whole time, every years was over 200 hours flying.

[carusoam]

for an interesting comparison...

Check out the opposite end of the spectrum....

This will give more of a 3D view...

This short body Mooney was somebody’s forever-plane.

Steve, the former owner was the mechanic for Tom, the seller...  two Mooney friends...

-a-

 

[dylanac]

I will echo what everyone else is saying: this is absolutely not worth it. I'm new here because last week I bought an E model. It was sitting for around a year. 2300hrs on the engine, out of annual by about 9 months. Only thing wrong with it was it needed a new spinner as the old one got dented. I paid $15k. It's going to need about $5k this annual but I'm having them replace a lot of little stuff like bushings and some wiring (and obviously a spinner thats $2k alone). Even if I put a new engine in it I'm under $50k. $50k is actually hilarious for a C model, even in flying condition. There's a clean M20E for sale for $50k on barnstormers right now.

[bradp]

On 3/17/2021 at 8:04 PM, Stephen Slate said:

These replies have been great.  The current owner has loved having the plane, but hasn't done anything to show that affection...  ie, things are dirty and stinky with disaster potentially lurking at every bend, not unlike my lower intestine.  I know the registration is expired, the annual is out but he's a confident guy who loves his plane and it seems to love him, so he flies it with reckless abandon.  I am going to run it through the mechanic and see what it will take to get her back in annual and go from there.  Sound smart?  

Nope.  Doesn’t sound smart. Sorry. 

[Immelman]

Meanwhile I am reading stories of vastly inflated prices across the piston GA market in the past year due to demand and decreased inventory.

How did 2020 affect the vintage Mooney market???

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, dylanac said:

I will echo what everyone else is saying: this is absolutely not worth it. I'm new here because last week I bought an E model. It was sitting for around a year. 2300hrs on the engine, out of annual by about 9 months. Only thing wrong with it was it needed a new spinner as the old one got dented. I paid $15k. It's going to need about $5k this annual but I'm having them replace a lot of little stuff like bushings and some wiring (and obviously a spinner thats $2k alone). Even if I put a new engine in it I'm under $50k. $50k is actually hilarious for a C model, even in flying condition. There's a clean M20E for sale for $50k on barnstormers right now.

Well I’m glad with a weeks worth of ownership experience you have it all figured out!

[dylanac]

4 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Well I’m glad with a weeks worth of ownership experience you have it all figured out!

Hello to you too. Not to be rude but it shouldn't take longer than 15 minutes on classifieds to figure out that $50k for a C in this rough of shape is a terrible deal. This isn't my first plane, none of this stuff is exactly rocket surgery.

Edited March 22, 2021 by dylanac

[JWJR]

The stock market and home values are near record territory. There was or is a airline pilot shortage on the near horizon so more students both ones that always wanted to fly for recreation/personal travel and students working towards the airlines. Some folks prefer flying themselves instead of airlines due to covid. These factors have lifted prices the last couple of years. I would be hesitant to call them inflated as a new plane these days runs from 375k to 800k plus depending on the make and model. Demand is pacing a little faster than supply these days.
A substantial rise in avgas or a housing ,stock market pullback can drive demand down fast. I’m not a broker and don’t have hard numbers to substantiate but yeah prices are up a bit it seems.


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[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, dylanac said:

$50k is actually hilarious for a C model, even in flying condition. 

 

15 minutes ago, dylanac said:

Hello to you too. Not to be rude but it shouldn't take longer than 15 minutes on classifieds to figure out that $50k for a C in this rough of shape is a terrible deal. This isn't my first plane, none of this stuff is exactly rocket surgery.

Never said this one was worth anywhere close to 50.  Just remarking on your blanket statement above.  The ownership experience was referring to your E you just picked up. Good luck and enjoy the ride!

[dylanac]

23 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

 

Never said this one was worth anywhere close to 50.  Just remarking on your blanket statement above.  The ownership experience was referring to your E you just picked up. Good luck and enjoy the ride!

My bad, I thought you were being snarky.