rebuild (zero time) engine or overhaul the engine?

[PilotX]

I’m with the “go with what you know” crowd. Had 2650 TTSMO (and 24 years) on the engine, flew my family in that plane at night. Take care of it and it will take care of you. Sold the plane, nearly a year later it is still flying with the same engine, it even though he planned to re-do the engine this past winter. 

[Vance Harral]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

The factory has made it very clear they do not charge back for bad components inside of an operable engine.

Thanks for the clarification.  Do you know if Lycoming has put this in writing somewhere?  I'm casually working on a (hopefully) long-term project to spec overhaul choices for our partnership, and would like to accurately represent the factory rebuilt choice.

[PT20J]

31 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Thanks for the clarification.  Do you know if Lycoming has put this in writing somewhere?  I'm casually working on a (hopefully) long-term project to spec overhaul choices for our partnership, and would like to accurately represent the factory rebuilt choice.

I talked to Lycoming at length about this when I sent in my core. The written stuff I got was kind of scary because it's written by lawyers. to protect Lycoming's interests, not mine. What the field rep told me is that their big concern is really two things: People sweeping up the shop of spare parts and throwing them together and calling them an engine and tying to get credit for what is essentially a pile of junk, and people sending in incomplete engines and then reselling the unreturned parts.

When I needed an engine I went with a factory rebuilt. My reason was simple: I wanted the best engine I could get and I trusted Lycoming to have a good quality assurance program since they now do the rebuilts on the same line as new engines. In my limited experience, the biggest problem with GA maintenance is lack of quality control. A quality manufacturing operation is process controlled. Most GA shops operate at the mercy of the aptitude and experience of the individual mechanics. This is not to say that they cannot do good work -- it is to say that if "Joe" was the expert and "Joe" leaves then the work may not be of the same quality. Previous owners of my airplane had very questionable work done by very well respected MSCs. I can catch most airframe issues, but I decided that I was more comfortable with Lycoming rebuilding my engine.

Skip

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Vance Harral said:

Thanks for the clarification.  Do you know if Lycoming has put this in writing somewhere?  I'm casually working on a (hopefully) long-term project to spec overhaul choices for our partnership, and would like to accurately represent the factory rebuilt choice.

I’m starting to remember more details about the reman/core charge issue I heard about.  The engine was from a C-172 and when lycoming opened it up, they found a Superior cam, not a lycoming... they said they can’t accept it since they can’t use it, but the owners didn’t even know it was in there!  Engine had been field overhauled several times and no documentation that it was a superior cam.  Anyway, they worked out a reasonable charge and lyc took the engine.

[carusoam]

Let’s see...

If I get this correct...

1) Sekomel has about the half-life on their engine so far...

2) No bits of metal are showing up in the oil change...

3) If oil drips out of it... there are plenty of seals and rubber hoses that can be easily exchanged...

4) has the engine had any time sitting idle... measured in years, of no operation...?

5) The major demise for an IO360 is sitting idle...

6) All of the cams we have seen around here that get ground down... have a matching cam follower that has gone bad... ‘cratered’

7) When cam followers crater... they turn into cutting tools...

8) Cam lobes have a hard layer of a few thousandths...  the cratered follower has a hard time getting through this layer...

9) Oil analysis is a good way to see if a cratered cam is working the lobe surface...

10) Filter analysis is a good way to tell when a lobe is getting cut down...

11) CloudAhoy is a good way to tell if engine performance is changing...

12) cam lobe modifications by the followers takes many hours to occur... it isn’t a single flight kind of thing...

13) Many of the followers can be inspected by removing a cylinder... see the pics around here...

14) Many people learn about their cam issue by lobes showing up in the filter...

15) Expect to be able to fly this engine to TBO+... if it isn’t making metal, or leaking oil....

16) If it is making metal... determine what it is... some things seem worse than they are... wrist pins come to mind...

17) Some oil leaks are easy fixes... two are not... silk thread between case halves, and case cracks up by the cylinders...

18) There is a phrase used for people in the US flying GA planes... flying on condition... perfectly OK to fly unless the conditions have changed...

19) When something causes the engine to need an OH... MS has many good experiences and recommendations of particular shops...

20) My ‘94 engine did really well... until, the ground struck it while I was several towns away...  it got a factory reman from Continental... I was out of town, not able to oversee it getting OH’d... getting a factory reman from Continental was a proper choice for me at that time...

21) what makes a Continental reman a good choice...? If you have to sell after the engine gets put back on the plane... I can’t think of a better choice than that...

22) coming up on a decade later... still a good choice...

 

A few thoughts off the top of a PP’s head... no technical experience to draw from...

Been there done that...

Best regards,

-a-

[RJBrown]

I’ve had 3 Mooney Rebuilt engines. A Continental TSIO52NB installed by Rocket during the conversion. It lasted 88 hours. Whoever assembled it forgot to bend the tabs under the bolts that hold the alternator drive gear to the crank. When they came loose the destroyed the alternator and filled the engine with metal. The second factory reman went 1000 hour with no issues when I sold it. The third was an overhaul by Western Skyways on a 1990 MSE. No trouble sold airplane after only 200 hours on engine. 
The moral of the story is longevity depends on how careful the individual building your engine was. 
Infant mortality is real. 
You may not be able to improve your lot statistically over what you have. 

[sekomel]

firstly, thanks so much for the all replies, appreciated for your all help. and sorry for the late reply as I was in china last couple days and the internet is a huge problem there, for me at least.

here are some updates from my side:

- my technician did the compression test last week, the results are, 79/78/72/76 for the all four cylinders.

- we also planned to do the oil analysis for the next week. (as my oil and oil filter just changed recently my technician here advised me fly at least 5-10 hours to get realistic results)

also there is only a one company (name is EmAir) who is official partner of Lycoming here in Turkey so I think I will have no issues about getting the engine but first I need to make sure do I need it to overhaul my engine or not...? :/

after all the investigations, if I am sure that I will continue my current engine to my around the world trip, my second major concern is about the 'oil' actually.

the longest trip will be flight from Hawaii to California (almost 2.100 nm and takes appx 12-13 hours flight with appx 150 cruise spd) I can fix the extra fuel issues with extra fuel tanks from turtle-pack company (an australian company) and monroy fuel tanks. However, I am not quite sure how I will arrange the enough oil on board to get the aircraft there? As far as I know, the minimum oil requirements is 6 quarts oil and max is 8 quarts oil, and if I take-off with max oil (8 quarts) on board and let's say the aircraft will burn 0.5 quarts oil per hour and after 12 hours there will be only 2 quarts oil on board - if everything goes as planned for sure..) which means 4 quarts lower than the minimum oil level..

is there anyone experienced this before, do you have any suggestions or guidelines for me, please?

thank you again all, really appreciated.

I ll fly to New York and Houston next week, if you need anything from Istanbul, just text me

see you soon

sekomel

[ArtVandelay]

You can add a supplemental oil system.

 

https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/ferry-tank-installations

[Rusty Pilot]

26 minutes ago, sekomel said:

firstly, thanks so much for the all replies, appreciated for your all help. and sorry for the late reply as I was in china last couple days and the internet is a huge problem there, for me at least.

here are some updates from my side:

- my technician did the compression test last week, the results are, 79/78/72/76 for the all four cylinders.

- we also planned to do the oil analysis for the next week. (as my oil and oil filter just changed recently my technician here advised me fly at least 5-10 hours to get realistic results)

also there is only a one company (name is EmAir) who is official partner of Lycoming here in Turkey so I think I will have no issues about getting the engine but first I need to make sure do I need it to overhaul my engine or not...? :/

after all the investigations, if I am sure that I will continue my current engine to my around the world trip, my second major concern is about the 'oil' actually.

the longest trip will be flight from Hawaii to California (almost 2.100 nm and takes appx 12-13 hours flight with appx 150 cruise spd) I can fix the extra fuel issues with extra fuel tanks from turtle-pack company (an australian company) and monroy fuel tanks. However, I am not quite sure how I will arrange the enough oil on board to get the aircraft there? As far as I know, the minimum oil requirements is 6 quarts oil and max is 8 quarts oil, and if I take-off with max oil (8 quarts) on board and let's say the aircraft will burn 0.5 quarts oil per hour and after 12 hours there will be only 2 quarts oil on board - if everything goes as planned for sure..) which means 4 quarts lower than the minimum oil level..

is there anyone experienced this before, do you have any suggestions or guidelines for me, please?

thank you again all, really appreciated.

I ll fly to New York and Houston next week, if you need anything from Istanbul, just text me

see you soon

sekomel

A half quart per hour oil usage is high.  I use a quart every 15 hours or so.  Are you currently using that much oil?

[sekomel]

@ArtVandelay thanks so much, I will contact with them..

@Rusty Pilot well, I do not know yet, these data based on what I found on internet actually :/ I just flew 5 hours with my plane and the oil was almost same level so far..I think I will need to fly more and long distance to analyse oil usage of my airplane..

[ArtVandelay]

A half quart per hour oil usage is high.  I use a quart every 15 hours or so.  Are you currently using that much oil?

It is high depending on how much he is putting in, I believe I used that much when I have 7 or 8 quarts. But once at 6 it slows down to same rate as you.

[carusoam]

Expect ordinary oil usage of the IO360s to be about one quart per 10 hours.

Expect oil analysis to be a difficult tool to use...

The best use is comparing one oil sample to the next...

Since concentrations of things increase by the hour of usage...  the numbers get normalized by deciding the hours on the sample...

A few hours on the oil, won’t have much to see... unless things are wearing at an accelerated rate....

If you change oil every 50hours. Or 25hours... try to stay on a similar schedule so the numbers will be very comparable...

 

If the plane has been sitting a long time... the first oil sample will probably show an elevated amount of iron oxide... aka rust...

 

Sort of note that says... don’t expect too much from oil analysis... it’s a good tool, just not perfect...

it gets better over time as you have developed a history...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Expect ordinary oil usage of the IO360s to be about one quart per hour...

Expect oil analysis to be a difficult tool to use...

The best use is comparing one oil sample to the next...

Since concentrations of things increase by the hour of usage...  the numbers get normalized by deciding the hours on the sample...

A few hours on the oil, won’t have much to see... unless things are wearing at an accelerated rate....

If you change oil every 50hours. Or 25hours... try to stay on a similar schedule so the numbers will be very comparable...

 

If the plane has been sitting a long time... the first oil sample will probably show an elevated amount of iron oxide... aka rust...

 

Sort of note that says... don’t expect too much from oil analysis... it’s a good tool, just not perfect...

it gets better over time as you have developed a history...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

1 qt / hour?  I think you meant 1 qt / 10 hours probably?  1/hour is really messy and probably means something real bad is going on...

[carusoam]

On 3/25/2021 at 11:34 AM, Ragsf15e said:

1 qt / hour?  I think you meant 1 qt / 10 hours probably?  1/hour is really messy and probably means something real bad is going on...

Thanks Rags!

I double check everything I post...

After midnight, it gets read twice...   

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

 

If one reads the Lycoming Operator's  Manual (below) one will find that the minimum oil quantity allowed for safe operation is 2 quarts!!!   

My only real concern would be the life on the lifters and cam after so few hours per year from overhaul. I'd be sure to fly it 200+ hrs before I took off around the world as many times on here we see engines with bad lifter after someone buys an airplane that sat for a while and they get 200 hrs and the cam goes bad. 

Fly it enough to get a good idea of oi consumption (with 5 hrs flights  not 1 hr and refill the oil) clean up all the leaks and then make your decision to or not to go. 

 

OIL SUMP CAPACITY All Models (Except AIO-360 Series, O-360-J2A) ......... .......................................8 U.S. Quarts Minimum Safe Quantity in Sump (Except – IO-360-M1A, -M1B; HIO-360-G1A) ................................................2 U.S. Quarts

IO-360-M1A, -M1B; HIO-360-G1A..................................................................4 U.S. Quarts

AIO-360 Series ...........................................................................................................Dry Sump

O-360-J2A..............................................................................................................6 U.S. Quarts

[sekomel]

thank you all again.

I will work on it from now on and I will share the results with you all.