What Percentage of the 252 and Encore Fleet Has TKS?

[MediumSpeedAluminumTubing]

Hello everyone, I've been reading this forum on and off for about a year and finally got around to making an account. In the past two years my father and I have flown about 900 hours in an Archer on all sorts of XC trips. We are thinking that it would be nice to have a ship that can do two people (400lbs), five hours of fuel, 170 Kts, and Midwest winter IFR. I think that a FIKI Encore would suit our mission best. I've noticed that 252's are rather rare, Encore's even more so, and have yet to see one equipped with either an inadvertent or KI system. I'm hoping that this is just recency bias as there aren't a ton of planes on the market right now.

Does anyone know how many 252's and Encore's have TKS and how often they come to market? If anyone has thoughts on alternitive model selection that would also be appreciated. My current thinking that the O's and Bravo's are overkill for our mission and thus the increased ownership costs would be nice to avoid. The Eagle seems like the second best option but they are also relatively rare. 

[Niko182]

1 hour ago, MediumSpeedAluminumTubing said:

Hello everyone, I've been reading this forum on and off for about a year and finally got around to making an account. In the past two years my father and I have flown about 900 hours in an Archer on all sorts of XC trips. We are thinking that it would be nice to have a ship that can do two people (400lbs), five hours of fuel, 170 Kts, and Midwest winter IFR. I think that a FIKI Encore would suit our mission best. I've noticed that 252's are rather rare, Encore's even more so, and have yet to see one equipped with either an inadvertent or KI system. I'm hoping that this is just recency bias as there aren't a ton of planes on the market right now.

Does anyone know how many 252's and Encore's have TKS and how often they come to market? If anyone has thoughts on alternitive model selection that would also be appreciated. My current thinking that the O's and Bravo's are overkill for our mission and thus the increased ownership costs would be nice to avoid. The Eagle seems like the second best option but they are also relatively rare. 

O's and eagles are the same air frames with the same engines except for a 2400rpm max limit on the eagle, and since a good chunk of them have been converted to screaming eagles, most of them are the same. If an Ovation is overkill, an eagle would be too, so I wouldn't exclude the Ovations.

As far as 252's, you can find them with TKS, but FIKI 252's are very very rare. There was a FIKI encore for sale a couple months back listed at 239k. They don't go for cheap.

[ArtVandelay]

O's and eagles are the same air frames with the same engines except for a 2400rpm max limit on the eagle, and since a good chunk of them have been converted to screaming eagles, most of them are the same. If an Ovation is overkill, an eagle would be too, so I wouldn't exclude the Ovations.
As far as 252's, you can find them with TKS, but FIKI 252's are very very rare. There was a FIKI encore for sale a couple months back listed at 239k. They don't go for cheap.

I assume they will have a low useful load.

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I assume they will have a low useful load.

The Encore I used to own (with FIKI) had a decent useful load and after the new owner's panel upgrade, vacuum removal, I'm sure it's much better.

But to answer the OP's questions, there are not many that are FIKI. I believe there were only 35 Encores made and I knew of three of them for sure that were FIKI, maybe more. Very few 252 FIKI also, since FIKI didn't come out until the 252 had been out of production for almost 10 years. Adding the $50,000+ was a big chunk compared to the value of the airframe.

[Davidv]

8 hours ago, MediumSpeedAluminumTubing said:

Hello everyone, I've been reading this forum on and off for about a year and finally got around to making an account. In the past two years my father and I have flown about 900 hours in an Archer on all sorts of XC trips. We are thinking that it would be nice to have a ship that can do two people (400lbs), five hours of fuel, 170 Kts, and Midwest winter IFR. I think that a FIKI Encore would suit our mission best. I've noticed that 252's are rather rare, Encore's even more so, and have yet to see one equipped with either an inadvertent or KI system. I'm hoping that this is just recency bias as there aren't a ton of planes on the market right now.

Does anyone know how many 252's and Encore's have TKS and how often they come to market? If anyone has thoughts on alternitive model selection that would also be appreciated. My current thinking that the O's and Bravo's are overkill for our mission and thus the increased ownership costs would be nice to avoid. The Eagle seems like the second best option but they are also relatively rare. 

If you're buying a plane to avoid weather and want TKS I wouldn't rule out the Bravo.  Any turbo is going to be useful in climbing efficiently (I use the word efficient because I know some people have taken their O's to 17k, but it's not the quickest in getting up there) above cloud layers in the winter.  Bravo TKS's seem to be selling at a premium right now but will probably be easier to find than a FIKI Encore...

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard MSAT!

when you are serious enough to be searching for a Fiki ship...

Enjoy the hunt!

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

28 minutes ago, Davidv said:

If you're buying a plane to avoid weather and want TKS I wouldn't rule out the Bravo.  Any turbo is going to be useful in climbing efficiently (I use the word efficient because I know some people have taken their O's to 17k, but it's not the quickest in getting up there) above cloud layers in the winter.  Bravo TKS's seem to be selling at a premium right now but will probably be easier to find than a FIKI Encore...

A FIKI Encore was on the market briefly about six months ago. As I recall, the asking price was 250-260,000, which is higher than the asking price for the FIKI Bravos, which are usually in the 220-240,000 range. The Encore would be slightly slower but more fuel efficient and easily capable of LOP. Probably a better UL than a Bravo. But the Bravo would boogey. Just a guess, but I am thinking the number of 252s with FIKI is in the single digits or pretty close.

[smwash02]

It will be challenging to find a FIKI Encore. I have a non-FIKI 252 converted to an Encore and the useful is 1024 lbs, but I'm removing the vacuum here shortly so that should go up a little bit. I wonder if @CAV Ice@CAV Ice Protection would disclose how many M20K kits they sold. It would give you some data on what's potentially out there.

A note from the owner who installed the TKS said that the FIKI and non-FIKI leading edge panels are different. The FIKI ones have a gap where the landing light is, likely because it was approved for the later models first.

A Bravo would likely be a more realistic choice unless you have time to wait and are willing to pay a premium.

[jlunseth]

PS one cannot buy a non-FIKI TKS aircraft and expect to be able to convert to FIKI at a savings. It costs more than installing a new FIKI system from scratch because the old must be entirely removed, according to CAV.

[ArtVandelay]

There is a Bravo with FIKI on controller now for $220k.

[MediumSpeedAluminumTubing]

Thanks for the replies everyone. From what I'm gathering, finding a full FIKI 252 or Encore will likely require patience. I'm thinking that an inadvertent system would still offer a good improvement in utility over the Archer due to the FAA's ambiguous wording in their most recent Known Icing Letter of Interpretation. I think that any 252 series with either type of TKS system and at least 800 pounds UL would fit our mission.

From what I understand, the long bodies cost more to run by way of increased fuel burn and engine maintenance. The 5 GPH difference is relatively small potatoes in my book but the big bore Mx seems like it can be a headache. I'll have to do some more reading on the differences between the O and the Bravo before seriously considering them. My dad thought that a long body would be a good plane to own with a partner to reduce costs. 

Thank you for the tip, Art. That Bravo's spec sheet looks pretty nice, I'll give the seller a ring.

[LANCECASPER]

Since Mooney is working on a Gross Weight Increase for Long Bodies getting an FIKI Bravo, which there are many more of, makes more sense than trying to find a more expensive needle in a haystack. 

[MIm20c]

First question to answer is do you want to use O2 on a regular basis and are you planning (multiple) trips out west?

I would stick to the ovation or bravo if you want TKS. No advantage going with the eagle and very little savings (especially with the higher purchase price) going with the encore. 

We are in a strange market right now with very little inventory and a lot of demand. Prices on some models are up over 30 percent in the past year. TKS also seems like a sought after option that is pulling prices up. 
 

Factory encores are very few in number however they do come available if you’re willing to wait. The past three that sold range from selling in a week, to 4+ months, to on and off 4+ years. Just depends on the supply and demand market like all other aircraft. 

[carusoam]

MSAT,

What part of the Mooney world will you be flying in most often?

There are certain areas that make a FIKI system more useable...

The Lee side of large bodies of water in the fall and winter would make a lot of sense...

Flying around TX only, the AC becomes more interesting... (air conditioning)

The long bodies are still current... any development work for new products tend to be developed and cover this cohort.

TKS is good, FIKI is better, the ability to stay out of ice is the best... 

We have some good weather tools and training discussed around here as well...

There is still one Ovation ready to be finished any way you like, in Kerrville...

 

Long Bodies include...

Bravo, Eagle, Ovation, Acclaim...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Mcstealth]

What is your budget?

[Ragsf15e]

Bravo, ovation, or Eagle with TKS probably your best option to find.  From the folks here, I hear the ownership costs between the Ovation/Eagle and the vintage models aren’t much different.  Overhaul is more but over the life of the engine, the costs are similar.  Ownership cost between Encore and Ovation/Eagle is gonna be really similar.  Many more TKS ovations out there.

[Niko182]

4 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Bravo, ovation, or Eagle with TKS probably your best option to find.  From the folks here, I hear the ownership costs between the Ovation/Eagle and the vintage models aren’t much different.  Overhaul is more but over the life of the engine, the costs are similar.  Ownership cost between Encore and Ovation/Eagle is gonna be really similar.  Many more TKS ovations out there.

I think the cost between the 252 and the ovation and eagle should be around the same. The bravo will probably be a bit more but not much. Realistically, the airframes all cost the same. A TSIO360 and an IO550 probably cost about the same and the TIO540 is more.

[thinwing]

as far as increased maintance cost on the long bodys...i can only comment on my own Bravo experience and general experience with continental moters..basically maintaining a Fiki encore or 252 vs a bravo...its a wash...replacing cylinders at half TBo for continentals vs exaust system for bravos...(lycoming cylinders seem to go to TBO)Both will have the usual turbo maintance issues regardless.Fuel burn will be more for the Bravo but the extra 50 to 60 hp is very helpful in climb and cruise

[MediumSpeedAluminumTubing]

Budget is under 250k. I'm sure that you all are well aware of this but the real appeal of a Mooney is the speed and range. To justify paying taxes on a new plane and taking the risk of ditching a proven quantity(the Archer), it only makes sense to get something that offers a significant performance improvement (231 or better). 

We are based in the Midwest and see freezing IFR for 2-3 days a week between November-March. I'm thinking that the system would get the most use when we fly to Colorado and Utah. Being able to fly into the ski resorts in the Winter would be awesome. With this in mind, I think that only a turbo or 300Hp ship makes sense. With the relatively even costs between Encore's, O's, Eagle's, and Bravo's it now seems like we should consider anything FIKI equipped with a turbo or 300Hp.

[larryb]

My Encore, sn 25-2015, is FIKI. Installed by the first owner at 97 hours. I am the 3rd owner. I bought it 4 years ago. I was specifically looking for a FIKI Mooney but not specifically at Encores. I just happened to come across it in Controller just a day after it being posted. UL is 950. I usually fly it without rear seats installed and the UL in that config is 975.

[carusoam]

Let’s go shopping...

One of my favorite places to visit...

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/default.htm

 

For the latest inventory... go here... 

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listings/for-sale/aircraft/13?dscompanyid=6946&dlr=1&settingscrmid=614667

Talk to Jimmy... get ready to talk as many Mooney details as you can... also be ready to keep good notes...

If you talk about two different planes... it will be hard to keep the memories organized without the notes...

 

Visiting the inventory in person... is awesome...

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I think the cost between the 252 and the ovation and eagle should be around the same. The bravo will probably be a bit more but not much. Realistically, the airframes all cost the same. A TSIO360 and an IO550 probably cost about the same and the TIO540 is more.

TSIO360MB (252) and TIO540AF1B (Bravo) aren't much different in price. The IO550 is quite a bit less.

https://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/engines.asp?searchParm=TSIO360MB&catID=69

https://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/engines.asp?searchParm=TIO540AF1B&catID=33

https://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/engines.asp?searchParm=IO550&catID=69

 

[exM20K]

10 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

TSIO360MB (252) and TIO540AF1B (Bravo) aren't much different in price. The IO550 is quite a bit less.

https://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/engines.asp?searchParm=TSIO360MB&catID=69

https://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/engines.asp?searchParm=TIO540AF1B&catID=33

https://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/engines.asp?searchParm=IO550&catID=69

 

Right.  And be sure when doing these comparisons vs field overhaul or different engines to understand what’s included.  The wickedly expensive TSIO550G does include a full exhaust system and all accessories in the near $100,000 invoice.  Those things add up.

when I bought a factory reman or overhauled TSIO360 for my 231, I don’t recall what was included. but that was more than 20 years ago.

-Dan

[gsxrpilot]

The cylinders and turbo on my Continental TSIO360 made it all the way to TBO and a bit beyond. I also just went through a major overhaul and the bill from the engine shop including all the usual accessories and converting the engine from an MB to an SB... came in under $35K

[smwash02]

Unfortunately the Encore's TSIO360SB2 takes the cake at 87k new / 72k rebuilt.