Jump to content

Batteries?


Recommended Posts

I have a 1965 M20C.  I’m torn and hoping for some advice from the quorum. I’m having some battery issues and believe it is time to buy a new battery. I’ve researched and know that there are tow types of STC approved batteries. Weights are similar, voltage is similar, and all things considered, there is a very narrow margin between the lead acid or the electrolyte type of battery.   


I’m looking for recommendations from more experienced pilots on which is better and why. 
 

Thanks in advance, I’m looking forward to your responses. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, S.C. said:

I have a 1965 M20C.  I’m torn and hoping for some advice from the quorum. I’m having some battery issues and believe it is time to buy a new battery. I’ve researched and know that there are tow types of STC approved batteries. Weights are similar, voltage is similar, and all things considered, there is a very narrow margin between the lead acid or the electrolyte type of battery.   


I’m looking for recommendations from more experienced pilots on which is better and why. 
 

Thanks in advance, I’m looking forward to your responses. 

There are some newer style lithium batterues approved for use in 12v systems. I dont know if they're available for tge mooney, however that probably where id look first. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you're asking people to compare wet-cell lead-acid batteries vs sealed lead-acid batteries?  Concorde makes the sealed lead-acid battery that @Andy95W mentioned.  Gill makes the older wet-cell lead-acid battery, but also does make a newer sealed lead-acid battery.

The consensus seems to be the wet-cell Gill's were terrible and didn't last long, while most people swear by the Concorde batteries.  There are a couple people who've used the newer Gill sealed lead-acid battery and initial reports are positive.

Wet-cell batteries are inferior in almost every way, but moderately cheaper:

  • less cold resistance
  • higher self-discharge
  • leaks electrolyte
  • requires adding water for maintenance
  • shorter life
  • can't be inverted

The only advantages I can think of:

  • a little cheaper
  • charging is more idiot-proof
  • Longer shelf life before use

I've not heard of any STC's for lithium batteries in Mooneys.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don"t waste anymore brain cells on this....get the concord....be done and don"t have to think about it for another 5-7 years....

Mine is over 5 years old now I think....no battery tender ever and sometimes go 2 plus weeks without flying....

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Wet-cell batteries are inferior in almost every way, but moderately cheaper:

  • less cold resistance
  • higher self-discharge
  • leaks electrolyte
  • requires adding water for maintenance
  • shorter life
  • can't be inverted

The savings of purchasing flooded battery vs. sealed may well be offset by having to buy and pay mx to replace the bottom tray of the battery box.  (RTV is NOT a proper repair!)  I think the part was just under .2 amu 10 years ago, but Dan threw in a handful of rivets for free.  GO DAN!

image.thumb.jpeg.750807e629f24240aaf1ec066462f852.jpeg

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, 47U said:

The savings of purchasing flooded battery vs. sealed may well be offset by having to buy and pay mx to replace the bottom tray of the battery box.  (RTV is NOT a proper repair!)  I think the part was just under .2 amu 10 years ago, but Dan threw in a handful of rivets for free.  GO DAN!

Last I heard, if the dripping gets out of hand and you need a new battery box, they're now > 2AMU.  :blink:

I really like my Concord RG-35AXC. Always starts! First one went 7 years, #2 was installed in Sept '16.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Last I heard, if the dripping gets out of hand and you need a new battery box, they're now > 2AMU.  :blink:

I really like my Concord RG-35AXC. Always starts! First one went 7 years, #2 was installed in Sept '16.

It shouldn't be possible. Each year the box is inspected and any corrosion is sanded off and new battery box paint is put on. I always keep battery box paint around.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

It shouldn't be possible. Each year the box is inspected and any corrosion is sanded off and new battery box paint is put on. I always keep battery box paint around.

The previous owner replaced his / my battery box. A year later, when the Gill died, I went Concord. That was in Fall 2008. Zero battery box maintenance required since then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did I ever mention my love for Gill batteries...

or Champion spark plugs...

Let me opine...

:)


 

If you fly in the FLs... check the altitude rating for the battery...  they are all vented to some extent... see if there are any limitations...

If you still use a sticks and stones and springs voltage controller...

Work on getting a modern one... it is much nicer on the whatever battery you choose...

Check the weight of the new battery to make sure you don’t have to run a new WnB...

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Two Concorde gel cells replaced my old Gill batteries... 

Both brands are covered as replacements for the O...

We May eve have a half dozen users of Gill batteries around here... you won’t be alone...

Best regards,

-a-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/15/2021 at 12:40 AM, S.C. said:

I have a 1965 M20C.  I’m torn and hoping for some advice from the quorum. I’m having some battery issues and believe it is time to buy a new battery. I’ve researched and know that there are tow types of STC approved batteries. Weights are similar, voltage is similar, and all things considered, there is a very narrow margin between the lead acid or the electrolyte type of battery.   


I’m looking for recommendations from more experienced pilots on which is better and why. 
 

Thanks in advance, I’m looking forward to your responses. 

Concorde.  Don't muck around with anything else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/14/2021 at 9:40 PM, S.C. said:

I have a 1965 M20C.  I’m torn and hoping for some advice from the quorum. I’m having some battery issues and believe it is time to buy a new battery. I’ve researched and know that there are tow types of STC approved batteries. Weights are similar, voltage is similar, and all things considered, there is a very narrow margin between the lead acid or the electrolyte type of battery.   


I’m looking for recommendations from more experienced pilots on which is better and why. 
 

Thanks in advance, I’m looking forward to your responses. 

Batteries are like tires and everyone had their favorite and long remembers a bad experience.:)

Gill has a good reputation for flooded cell batteries but didn’t do so well with its original sealed (AGM) batteries.

Concorde has a good reputation for the AGMs and they get premium pricing.

Gill’s newer AGM may be as good as the Concorde and less expensive.

Here are a couple of articles on batteries:

https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2011-06_about-batteries.pdf
 

https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2011-07_battery-tlc.pdf
 

Batteries are sensitive to how they are used, so take other’s claims of longevity with a heavy dose of salt. For a VFR only airplane, it may be OK to replace the battery only when it starts to crank slowly, but for a mostly electric IFR airplane, you really should do an annual capacity test, and the battery will fail that long before you notice any other indication.

Skip

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gill wet cell are junk, you’ll hate them when one leaks, they eventually will.

‘I had one leak onto my brand new fabric covered airplane, I’ll never have another Gill.

‘The Concorde battery is manufactured in the US by the Godfrey family,they honestly have one goal and that’s to manufacture the best battery possible, and of course that does cost more, but you get what you pay for.

Gill prett much gives away batteries to OEM manufacturers, that way they advertise they are the OEM battery, and many people only want the battery that Beechcraft put in their Bonanza or Cirrus and they sell a lot of batteries from that, but they are cheap junk.

LifePo4 will be the next greatest thing, half the energy density of Li-Po but they don’t burn, but they aren’t here yet I don’t think, and the aircraft battery market is so small, and getting a PMA and TSO is so egregious, it may not happen.

Several put Odyssey batteries in aircraft with a field approval, but there just is no good reason to go through that when a perfectly fine Concorde exists.

Ref an IFR airplane and the reserve capacity of a battery as thats what’s going to get you down when the alternator quits.

‘ALL batteries when new are required to have the reserve capacity checked before installation. except a Concorde, Concorde did a cap check prior to shipping, and ALL batteries are required to have a capacity check yearly during the annual, but it’s almost never done.

‘However if you do fly IFR regularity, you may want to insist on the yearly capacity check.

Concorde’s are vented, but they can’t leak

Edited by A64Pilot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Gill wet cell are junk, you’ll hate them when one leaks, they eventually will.

‘I had one leak onto my brand new fabric covered airplane, I’ll never have another Gill.

‘The Concorde battery is manufactured in the US by the Godfrey family,they honestly have one goal and that’s to manufacture the best battery possible, and of course that does cost more, but you get what you pay for.

Gill prett much gives away batteries to OEM manufacturers, that way they advertise they are the OEM battery, and many people only want the battery that Beechcraft put in their Bonanza or Cirrus and they sell a lot of batteries from that, but they are cheap junk.

LifePo4 will be the next greatest thing, half the energy density of Li-Po but they don’t burn, but they aren’t here yet I don’t think, and the aircraft battery market is so small, and getting a PMA and TSO is so egregious, it may not happen.

Several put Odyssey batteries in aircraft with a field approval, but there just is no good reason to go through that when a perfectly fine Concorde exists.

Ref an IFR airplane and the reserve capacity of a battery as thats what’s going to get you down when the alternator quits.

‘ALL batteries when new are required to have the reserve capacity checked before installation. except a Concorde, Concorde did a cap check prior to shipping, and ALL batteries are required to have a capacity check yearly during the annual, but it’s almost never done.

‘However if you do fly IFR regularity, you may want to insist on the yearly capacity check.

Concorde’s are vented, but they can’t leak

Sheesh, that's awful about the brand new plane, I hope it was recoverable!

LiFePO4 is a very strange chemistry, and needs smart chargers to be able to charge them well.  IIRC, the charging voltage doesn't reflect the state of charge like normal lithium batteries, so you need a charge totalizer to know when to turn off the charging to keep from overcharging it.  Or something like that

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Sheesh, that's awful about the brand new plane, I hope it was recoverable!

LiFePO4 is a very strange chemistry, and needs smart chargers to be able to charge them well.  IIRC, the charging voltage doesn't reflect the state of charge like normal lithium batteries, so you need a charge totalizer to know when to turn off the charging to keep from overcharging it.  Or something like that

 

Was actually new fabric on my Maule which wasn’t new, the battery vented overboard so all it did was bleach out the paint, none got on the interior.

Lifepo4’s and all lithium batteries do have special charging “needs” they can’t be floated and charging has to be terminated when they are fully charged etc. I just came off living aboard a cruising boat for three years, Lithium has a great many advantages there, but is very problematic, for instance when they are full they have to be disconnected from the alternator, but doing so can or will blow the alternator. Plus the cells have to be balanced although many argue they don’t.

Most of this can be handled with onboard electronics in the battery if so equipped, but by the time we stopped cruising due to Covid, a true drop in Lithium didn’t exist, maybe now.

‘Issue is that yes lead acid is so yesterday, the charge profile and voltage stability etc of lithium and weight and power density is far superior, but lead acid is a way mature technology and is known. I guess it’s sort of the same reasons we still have Magneto’s.

On the boat I had a 660AH bank of Lifeline batteries, they are made by Concorde battery and are pretty much identical to the Concorde aircraft battery. I had them as they are the best deep cycle lead acid battery there is, and yes they cost more :)

66387C52-E5AE-4D85-8C4D-B7AB6EE6B9C5.jpeg

Edited by A64Pilot
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.