cwaters Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 Today was a beautiful day to fly. I decided to practice dialing in my landings in the MOONEY M20J. I have been getting better as I fly the plane more and more but that is more luck than skill and practice, so today I focused on trying to nail my touchdown point and shortening my required runway so I can feel comfortable visiting smaller airports in the area. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 Awesome verbal mediation, right from the beginning... Nice work, Mike! Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian E. Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 14 minutes ago, cwaters said: Today was a beautiful day to fly. I decided to practice dialing in my landings in the MOONEY M20J. I have been getting better as I fly the plane more and more but that is more luck than skill and practice, so today I focused on trying to nail my touchdown point and shortening my required runway so I can feel comfortable visiting smaller airports in the area. Thanks for sharing--good video. I watched in "speed" mode so I didn't capture all the details. I do believe that your cowl flaps remained in the same position. Be sure to close your cowl flaps as part of your cruise checklist or in the downwind. Don Kaye has a good handout around here that has a great pattern flow that has a crosswind flow involving MP & RPM reduction; leaning; turning boost pump/closing cowl flaps; lowering gear and setting flaps. IIRC the handout is called Don Kaye Airventure 2019 (or something similar). Good luck! Not a CFI yet, just a Moonship caretaker. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 For short-field, check your POH but my J's approach speed for max performance landing is listed as 65 KIAS at gross weight. Flying alone with partial fuel, that's more like 62 KIAS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwaters Posted March 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 15 hours ago, Brian E. said: Thanks for sharing--good video. I watched in "speed" mode so I didn't capture all the details. I do believe that your cowl flaps remained in the same position. Be sure to close your cowl flaps as part of your cruise checklist or in the downwind. Don Kaye has a good handout around here that has a great pattern flow that has a crosswind flow involving MP & RPM reduction; leaning; turning boost pump/closing cowl flaps; lowering gear and setting flaps. IIRC the handout is called Don Kaye Airventure 2019 (or something similar). Good luck! Not a CFI yet, just a Moonship caretaker. Thats awesome thanks for pointing me in the direction of the handout. I noticed that too, I seem to be forgetting about the cowl flaps if I'm staying in the pattern (I get them when I actually cruise) 14 hours ago, jaylw314 said: For short-field, check your POH but my J's approach speed for max performance landing is listed as 65 KIAS at gross weight. Flying alone with partial fuel, that's more like 62 KIAS! yeah, I'm still working on getting my speeds more consistent on final. I feel like I'm doing goo then glance over and see 75kts and groan. Just gives me more reason to fly more !! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 I never close my cowl flaps when doing pattern work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMooney Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 Touch and goes are no longer verbotten? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 1 minute ago, McMooney said: Touch and goes are no longer verbotten? They never were for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpaul Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 7 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: I never close my cowl flaps when doing pattern work. I never open my cowl flaps. Well other than for the 30 minute taxi at Oshkosh. I have a third fixed cowl flap and never see Temps that require opening them. But, agree that in the pattern in most planes leaving them open would be more beneficial than harmful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 5 hours ago, McMooney said: Touch and goes are no longer verbotten? Put it on the list with grass runways... There are times that they are good... There are times when they are not so good... Plenty of it converted around here in case you are not sure... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwaters Posted March 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 21 hours ago, McMooney said: Touch and goes are no longer verbotten? I didn't know they ever were? shouldn't you practice them every now and then incase you should need to go around for some reason? or avoid a long taxi back to take off again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMooney Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, cwaters said: I didn't know they ever were? shouldn't you practice them every now and then incase you should need to go around for some reason? or avoid a long taxi back to take off again? prob not a good thing, every few landings I "unintenionally" practice the touch and go Edited March 16, 2021 by McMooney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 hours ago, McMooney said: prob not a good thing, every few landings I "unintenionally" practice the touch and go That's probably a good thing! I hear pilot conversations around here where people brag they've never had to do a go-around outside of practice. That's probably not a good thing. I go around often enough even my wife thinks it's pretty normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwaters Posted March 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 14 hours ago, McMooney said: prob not a good thing, every few landings I "unintenionally" practice the touch and go are you saying its a bad thing to practice going around? keep in mind i have a grand total of 2 months in the plane now. 10 hours ago, jaylw314 said: That's probably a good thing! I hear pilot conversations around here where people brag they've never had to do a go-around outside of practice. That's probably not a good thing. I go around often enough even my wife thinks it's pretty normal. I don't know that I go around this much but I do maybe 10% of the time either planned or not. only bounced a landing 1 time so far the others were just not a stabilized approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 All I've done for the last year has been landing practice. You'd think I'd be good at it by now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwaters Posted March 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 18 minutes ago, steingar said: All I've done for the last year has been landing practice. You'd think I'd be good at it by now. I'm sure you're better than I am at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 16 hours ago, cwaters said: are you saying its a bad thing to practice going around? keep in mind i have a grand total of 2 months in the plane now. I don't know that I go around this much but I do maybe 10% of the time either planned or not. only bounced a landing 1 time so far the others were just not a stabilized approach. Lets clear a few things up.... 1) Go arounds are free... use as many as you like... 2) TnGs have been known to cause distraction... a brain fog.... 3) TnGs with plenty of runway are a bit different than TnGs when the runway is shorter... 4) We lost a rental Mooney in NJ due to a botched landing, turned TnG, turned departure stall... 5) Go arounds need practice... high power, nose up trim, with full flaps take a known bit of practice.... and balance... 6) Bounced landings include all of the above... 7) If things don’t settle... and you get a second bounce... your inner voice is trained to call the GA for you... listen to your inner voice... 8) The third bounce is also known as the pile driver... that may include broken nose gear to go along with your prop strike... 9) Read up on distractions (a technical term)... what they are... how to avoid them... it’s a limit of the brain with regards to multi-tasking... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... or brainiac. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midlifeflyer Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) On 3/16/2021 at 3:50 PM, cwaters said: I didn't know they ever were? shouldn't you practice them every now and then incase you should need to go around for some reason? or avoid a long taxi back to take off again? There are those who feel the risks of an inadvertent gear up are substantially increased by touch and goes, and those who do not. We make our choices and live with the results. No, making the landing of your choice, leisurely reconfiguring for takeoff, and making the takeoff of your choice is not practice for a go-around. You practice for a go around by doing go arounds at various points of an approach. Yes, avoiding a long taxi back is the sole reason for touch and goes. Edited March 18, 2021 by midlifeflyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwaters Posted March 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 8 hours ago, carusoam said: Lets clear a few things up.... 1) Go arounds are free... use as many as you like... 2) TnGs have been known to cause distraction... a brain fog.... 3) TnGs with plenty of runway are a bit different than TnGs when the runway is shorter... 4) We lost a rental Mooney in NJ due to a botched landing, turned TnG, turned departure stall... 5) Go arounds need practice... high power, nose up trim, with full flaps take a known bit of practice.... and balance... 6) Bounced landings include all of the above... 7) If things don’t settle... and you get a second bounce... your inner voice is trained to call the GA for you... listen to your inner voice... 8) The third bounce is also known as the pile driver... that may include broken nose gear to go along with your prop strike... 9) Read up on distractions (a technical term)... what they are... how to avoid them... it’s a limit of the brain with regards to multi-tasking... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... or brainiac. Best regards, -a- I love the numbered list, the engineer in me thanks you. I do agree they could cause distraction but can be properly mitigated with proper training and due attention. I've heard the stories of the bounce->prop-strike combo and was taught you get two and the third will be the expensive one (in most cases). 59 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said: There are those who feel the risks of an inadvertent gear up are substantially increased by touch and goes, and those who do not. We make our choices and live with the results. I think the risk goes up depending on how you treat things, if you don't have a solid pre-landing check or don't mentally reset then I could see that being the case. I see more of an increased risk of not pulling the gear up or as someone pointed out leaving the cowl flaps open (both of which I understand are not expensive oversights like a gear up) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 Y'know, I've been one of the more vocal about this T&G stuff, and I would like to clarify my thoughts. When learning to fly I did endless circuits of the pattern, T&G after T&G. I would NEVER do this in my Mooney, too easy to forget the gear. That said, I've done a bunch where I was just landing and departing. Did one at night, didn't set the trim right (couldn't see) and had a bit of a ride. Still a nonevent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midlifeflyer Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 4 hours ago, cwaters said: I think the risk goes up depending on how you treat things, if you don't have a solid pre-landing check or don't mentally reset then I could see that being the case. I see more of an increased risk of not pulling the gear up or as someone pointed out leaving the cowl flaps open (both of which I understand are not expensive oversights like a gear up) Yes. If you do everything perfectly, everything will work out all right. And, as I said, some people think the risk/reward calculation says "do it," and others think it says "don't." The hull damage premiums for retracts of equivalent value compared with fixed gear aircraft suggest pilot don't do it perfectly. I even have personal kowledge of at least one situation in which the gear was retracted a wee bit too early on the "go" — on an instructional flight no less. But that's them, not you, and I wouldn't think of trying to convince you to change how you choose to view the risk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwaters Posted March 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 1 minute ago, midlifeflyer said: Yes. If you do everything perfectly, everything will work out all right. And, as I said, some people think the risk/reward calculation says "do it," and others think it says "don't." The hull damage premiums for retracts of equivalent value compared with fixed gear aircraft suggest pilot don't do it perfectly. I even have personal knowledge of at least one situation in which the gear was retracted a wee bit too early on the "go" — on an instructional flight no less. But that's them, not you, and I wouldn't think of trying to convince you to change how you choose to view the risk. No I appreciate the insight. Everyone has opinions and a good way to form a new one is to hear from those more experienced and then decide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 19, 2021 Report Share Posted March 19, 2021 There are many ways to accidentally have a GU landing... Including having one with your CFI onboard... or... Having a video of it while the GU alarm is screaming the whole way.... (not an MSer...) Some MSers have enough skill to balance the plane perfectly... and run a wheelie down the centerline before departing again... The benefit of the TnG... time saved when paying by the rental hour... The risk of the TnG... they are known methods of causing a GU landing... (cognitive overload) Once you own the Mooney... the time saved usually doesn’t mean very much... The risk doesn’t change... own/rent... How you feel after the GU landing... when you think, could I have done better..? Or when your pilot pals get together and say there are two types of retract pilots... those who.... In the end... the desire to do a TnG seems to fade... Most of the videos around here get scored on... Do the mains and nose wheel touch down separately... or is there only microseconds between them... Can you hear the stall horn sound about a second before the mains touch... does the nose wheel land on the centerline... Did the mains touch after the numbers, but before the first stripe... The TnG seems to be a fictional measurement of pilot skill discussed often in flight schools... Being able to know landing speeds for your landing GW... helps... having an AOAi makes things a lot easier... watch a few videos... score them with an objective view point... what are you looking for? Pp thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly_M20R Posted March 27, 2021 Report Share Posted March 27, 2021 On 3/16/2021 at 3:50 PM, cwaters said: I didn't know they ever were? shouldn't you practice them every now and then incase you should need to go around for some reason? or avoid a long taxi back to take off again? I love doing touch and go’s!!! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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