AV30C update and request

[Jakes Simmons]

     Recap from previous post. My ‘76 Ranger recently had installed two of the AV30C’s to replace the vacuum driven instruments. The number two used as a DG has the same excessive precession issues as others have noted. The number one used as an AI acted like a weak vacuum driven instrument and lagged showing up to a 5 degree bank when level. The shop swapped out the number one with a brand new unit and I flew the plane back to its home base  yesterday. Fun part was up to a 190 kt ground speed with 22” and 2350 rpm at 8.5k. Bad part was same poor performance by the new AV30. When I operated solely in reference to my portable Dynon D3, I stayed spot on altitude and heading, (GREAT product by the way), if I did that with the -30, I was constantly wandering on altitude and course. Rolling the airplane level visually I would watch the -30 still show a bank then slowly come back to level. Very frustrating and especially so since I’ve gotten myself into a box financially with the panel upgrade and no longer have the AMU’s to pull both out and redo with Aspen or Garmin.

      Searching forums, I have found a lot of folks complaining about the precession issues but nothing on AI problems. I am interested in others’ experiences with a dual AV30 install, especially with attitude reference. Does anyone here also have them or directly know other aircraft type owners with the certified version? My free time is inconsistent but if anyone here is interested in checking out the AV30C’s firsthand to see what they are like in use, I’m based in Columbus Ohio and would welcome a visit to help others out. Fly safe...

[ohdub]

I should be able to report on the AV-30C AI soon, I'm hoping to have my airplane back any day now with the newly installed AV-30. Your post has certainly made me apprehensive, I hope mine behaves better, although I still have my vacuum AI in the panel, it's just been shifted over to the right.

Steve

[philiplane]

The attitude function works perfectly, the only problem is with heading precession when used in directional gyro mode. There is a software fix already in the experimental version, waiting for the FAA blessing to be installed in the certified version. 

The amount of heading precession varies based upon the type of plane. Some have very little, some have 30 degree errors in five minutes.

[Jakes Simmons]

4 hours ago, ohdub said:

I should be able to report on the AV-30C AI soon, I'm hoping to have my airplane back any day now with the newly installed AV-30. Your post has certainly made me apprehensive, I hope mine behaves better, although I still have my vacuum AI in the panel, it's just been shifted over to the right.

Steve

That would be great if you update your experience. I received an email reply from Uavionix, an engineer, who suggested electrical noise/interference might be causing the issue. Or the tubing being magnetized on the Mooney. Not quite sure how that would be a factor. I don’t have any noise from radios and the D3 with its AHRS works fine. I hope you have a better experience.

[carusoam]

Phillip,

is there any reason for the different precession with different planes?

 

Great details shared, Jakes!

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob - S50]

4 hours ago, carusoam said:

is there any reason for the different precession with different planes?

Not an electrical engineer, but I would think things like panel tilt and uncoordinated flight could make a difference.  Without rudder trim an airplane will only be in feet off, coordinated flight at one specific speed.  Any other speed and the plane will be flying sideways a bit.  I found that our J picked up about 3 KTAS in cruise when we added the GFC500 yaw damper because it kept the plane coordinated in climb and cruise.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

  I found that our J picked up about 3 KTAS in cruise when we added the GFC500 yaw damper because it kept the plane coordinated in climb and cruise.

You have just found the one feature, more than anything else, that will sell more yaw dampers to Mooney owners.

[ohdub]

Ok, so I promised a while ago that I would provide a pirep on the AV-30. Finally got my airplane back from the shop today, but I only had time for a short test flight.

So far it seems to work very well. AI behaves as I had hoped, no apparent laziness. ASI and Alt agreed with my analog gauges. I can't comment on the heading precession, I had it configured to gps track as that is how I had always intended to have it before I knew of the issue.

I will fly more in the coming days and hopefully get in some practice ifr under the hood to really test out the AI. I will also experiment with the heading indication to see if mine precesses badly. I'll report back once I've tested it more, but so far so good.

Steve

[MarkM20C]

My AV30 has terrible procession,  And would be all but unusable as a DG.  I have it connected to my GNS430 so I just use GPS heading.  I still have my vacuum operated DG. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by MarkM20C

[carusoam]

On 3/26/2021 at 12:20 AM, MarkM20C said:

Sorry meant  unusable as a DG.

You can find the edit button in the top right corner of the errant post...   it is a tiny coded ... (three dots)

Best regards,

-a-

[ohdub]

I've flown a bit more with the AV-30 and I can say that I'm very happy with it.

I configured page 3 to display heading today, and I only remembered to check on it once for precession. It was after 20 minutes and there was no noticable precession. I wonder if it's possible that the precession is an installation issue?

Steve

[ohdub]

Tried to calibrate the AoA today, after a little experimentation I'm not sure that it's worth displaying. It kinda works, but not well enough to be of any practical use.

@Jakes Simmonsas to your AI acting like a weak vacuum AI, I'm curious if your AV-30 is wired to your gps? I don't actually know if that could be a factor or not, but mine is wired to my IFD440, and I find that mine works flawlessly as an AI.

Steve

[Toothdok50]

On 3/11/2021 at 9:03 AM, ohdub said:

I should be able to report on the AV-30C AI soon, I'm hoping to have my airplane back any day now with the newly installed AV-30. Your post has certainly made me apprehensive, I hope mine behaves better, although I still have my vacuum AI in the panel, it's just been shifted over to the right.

Steve

Steve, I just had and AP/IA quote me a fee of $8,200 to install an AV-30-C in my M20C.   That's about 65 hours of labor once the equipment in subtracted from the price and static system check is done.  I'm scratching my head wondering what he's thinking when one guy on a Piper forum is reporting about 6 hours is required to install this unit.

Do you mind sharing what your A&P charged and how many hours he billed out on your install?  I'm concern about this quote...its seems really, really high.  Worse yet, I was going to do this in conjunction with an annual, so the plane is already going to be torn apart...

[hammdo]

My G5 was $1500 labor (installed) w GMU 11 and GAD 29B- I bought the G5 though...

$8500 does seem a bit much...

-Don

[Vance Harral]

13 minutes ago, Toothdok50 said:

Steve, I just had and AP/IA quote me a fee of $8,200 to install an AV-30-C in my M20C. 

That's completely nuts.  We had a Garmin G5 (slightly more expensive hardware) installed in our M20F by a shop who (1) had never done one before; and (2) had to replace a D-shell connector on our GTN due to bad pins.  Walk-away price was $5,505, total labor was 27.5 hours, and my feeling is we got a fair-but-not-particularly-good deal.  I can't imagine paying another 2+ AMUs to have an AV-30-C installed. 

[ohdub]

14 minutes ago, Toothdok50 said:

Steve, I just had and AP/IA quote me a fee of $8,200 to install an AV-30-C in my M20C.   That's about 65 hours of labor once the equipment in subtracted from the price and static system check is done.  I'm scratching my head wondering what he's thinking when one guy on a Piper forum is reporting about 6 hours is required to install this unit.

Do you mind sharing what your A&P charged and how many hours he billed out on your install?  I'm concern about this quote...its seems really, really high.  Worse yet, I was going to do this in conjunction with an annual, so the plane is already going to be torn apart...

I'm really not sure how many hours they needed for the AV-30 install, but that sounds high. I had mine put in during annual and had a new panel cut and a bunch of things moved around - jpi 900 moved from the copilot side over to my side etc. I also had all my windows replaced so trying to guess how many hours went to installing the AV-30 from the total labor hours billed is impossible. Clarence @M20Doc did the install, perhaps he can give you a ballpark idea of the number of hours required for it?

[Matt_AZ]

1 hour ago, Toothdok50 said:

Steve, I just had and AP/IA quote me a fee of $8,200 to install an AV-30-C in my M20C.   That's about 65 hours of labor once the equipment in subtracted from the price and static system check is done.  I'm scratching my head wondering what he's thinking when one guy on a Piper forum is reporting about 6 hours is required to install this unit.

Do you mind sharing what your A&P charged and how many hours he billed out on your install?  I'm concern about this quote...its seems really, really high.  Worse yet, I was going to do this in conjunction with an annual, so the plane is already going to be torn apart...

I helped with adding my AV-30C as a primary AI. I think we logged about 6 hours but only because we took our time & took care of some other wiring odds & ends. I’d say for and experienced & competent installer, 4-6 hours should cover it. You will also need to factor in another pitot/static test in there too but $8k seems ridiculous. 

[Guest]

I’m not really sure what the AV30 install portion was as we did it as part of a larger job as @ohdub says above.  We’re doing another on a Cessna 180, new panel, double AV-30, removed old vacuum system, new switches, breakers, tidy up wiring, new wing tips with LED landing lights, new LED nav and strobe lights and a new EDM monitor, plus loads of other small jobs.

Clarence

 

[drapo]

Installation on our M20E of a single AV30C, including connections to pitot, static, OAT and IFD540, here is the labor breakdown:

4hrs      Harness and pins fabrication ( UAvionix pins were redone due to poor fitting)

2hrs       Breaker and wire installation

1h          Tubing & fittings installation (pitot, static)

2hrs      Connect RS232 to IFD540

1h          Open, clean & close avionic bay panel.
 

10hrs total time labor.

 

 

[DCarlton]

I'm certainly not an expert but I was strongly considering an AV30 in the AI position and after reading this thread, I'm backing off.  Garmin requires a GPS input for the G5.  UAvionix does not require GPS for the AV30 (it's optional).  Now I've gotta wonder if the test and certification process was not as rigorous as it should have been.  Perhaps a GPS input should be required.  Would love to hear from the engineers.  Looks like the similar Sandia unit was discontinued too; it didn't require GPS either.  

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by DCarlton

[ohdub]

3 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I'm certainly not an expert but I was strongly considering an AV30 in the AI position and after reading this thread, I'm backing off.  Garmin requires a GPS input for the G5.  UAvionix does not require GPS for the AV30 (it's optional).  Now I've gotta wonder if the test and certification process was not as rigorous as it should have been.  Perhaps a GPS input should be required.  Would love to hear from the engineers.  Looks like the similar Sandia unit was discontinued too; it didn't require GPS either.  

 

I'm happy with mine. It is wired to the gps, so perhaps that is why mine works well.

[Ragsf15e]

15 minutes ago, ohdub said:

I'm happy with mine. It is wired to the gps, so perhaps that is why mine works well.

Try turning off the gps sometime and fly around for a little while.  Probably worth knowing if it’s substantially degraded (which I doubt since they had to try that in certification).  I did that with my G5s and didn’t notice any issues.  

[DCarlton]

9 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Try turning off the gps sometime and fly around for a little while.  Probably worth knowing if it’s substantially degraded (which I doubt since they had to try that in certification).  I did that with my G5s and didn’t notice any issues.  

After 36 years as a USN Govt. test engineer, I'm skeptical of everything.  Rigorous testing takes time and costs a ton; program managers often cut corners on testing unless forced.  I like your idea.  I almost bought the Sandia unit; then they pulled it off the market.  Then I was ready to pull the trigger on the AV30; now it has issues.  Looking forward to hearing more about the AV30.  And BTW, I'm not infatuated with Garmin; glad to see some competition.  

Edited May 16, 2021 by DCarlton