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What to do with an idle airplane


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Hi,

I'm looking at an Ovation that has been sitting for a few years with minimal flying in a hangar. A recent inspection has found some rust on the cylinder barrels but no problems with the cam or lifters. The owner has been using CamGaurd for a few years now and is very devoted to his airplane, but just hasn't flown it much.

Is a bit of rust in the cylinder barrels a deal breaker? Or will it just go away with some renewed use?

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13 minutes ago, johnhoge said:

Hi,

I'm looking at an Ovation that has been sitting for a few years with minimal flying in a hangar. A recent inspection has found some rust on the cylinder barrels but no problems with the cam or lifters. The owner has been using CamGaurd for a few years now and is very devoted to his airplane, but just hasn't flown it much.

Is a bit of rust in the cylinder barrels a deal breaker? Or will it just go away with some renewed use?

How did you determine there is no problems with the cam or lifters? Did you pull the cylinders?

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54 minutes ago, johnhoge said:

Hi,

I'm looking at an Ovation that has been sitting for a few years with minimal flying in a hangar. A recent inspection has found some rust on the cylinder barrels but no problems with the cam or lifters. The owner has been using CamGaurd for a few years now and is very devoted to his airplane, but just hasn't flown it much.

Is a bit of rust in the cylinder barrels a deal breaker? Or will it just go away with some renewed use?

Knowing nothing about this particular airplane, the first thoughts that strike me are if he was that devoted to his airplane, it would've been in better shape, and secondly, Camguard isn't a magic solution that keeps idle engines sitting around for years from rusting.

Where is the airplane located?  What are the total times on AF and engine?  Do you have access to the logbooks?

Steve

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The title of this thread is "What to do with an idle airplane" The correct answer is to find a way for it to fly and not be idle. The cost of letting an airplane sit is real. If I as an owner can't fly for one reason or another, it's then to my benefit to find a pilot who WILL fly the airplane. There are lots of ways to do this. An obvious one is to bring on a partner. It can even be a non-equity partner. If I knew I wasn't going to fly the plane for the next few years, it would probably be best to sell the plane on the front end of those years. But often it just sneaks up on us and the next thing we know is that it's been a few years. So don't sell it, but bring someone in who can fly it. 

There are lots of young but capable pilots out there needing to build time. Find a CFI who's trying to get to 1500 hours and the ATP. Even if you put them on the insurance and let them fly for a lower dry rate, you'll be money ahead when you decide it's time to sell. 

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Just now, ArtVandelay said:


Don’t have to, you can pull the barrel lifters, Lycoming mushroom lifters you can’t.

If you haven't done this, I suggest that you do.  My plane was not idle, though the usage was down the last few years before I bought it.  Turns out the lifters were garbage and they scored the cam.  I got to do an unplanned overhaul.  This would have been caught easily if the lifters had been pulled and looked at for the cost of probably only a couple hours labor.

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2 hours ago, johnhoge said:

Is a bit of rust in the cylinder barrels a deal breaker? Or will it just go away with some renewed use?

To answer this directly a small amount of surface rust is typically not a problem. But once it starts pitting it becomes a major problem as the next time the rings pass by they get beat up and no longer seal and compression will suffer or oil consumption will go up as the oil rings can no longer contain the oil. If the rust doesnt easily wipe away its a problem.

If the cylinders have rust I would start to be worried about other areas as well. As stated by others I wouldnt move forward on an idle engine like that without seeing the lifters and cams as well.

 

EDIT: The window between not a problem and a problem is very narrow.

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If you otherwise like the airplane this may not be a deal breaker, just needs a new deal. I was in a similar position with a PA-18 I was buying. What I did was make a sales agreement, wherein, I withheld some money in escrow and took title to the airplane.  I was then to  fly the airplane  the for 50 hours. If after that it was still making metal, I retained the money in escrow. If the engine cleaned itself up, seller got the remaining funds. It takes some writing and negotiating but can be done. 

Now, you're not going to hold out the price of a complete overhaul because the seller will calculate he can sell it to some other unsuspecting buyer and avoid the beating, so the amount has to be carefully calculated and reasonable negotiated. In my case, the buyer was anxious to exit so I got a pretty good chunk of the overhaul costs out of him. Realistically you can really only pro rate it. If the engine is mid time, then about half the cost of a field overhaul would be appropriate. If it is near TBO, not a lot of money can be held out because you're going to have to O/H it anyway. If it is a young engine, well, he needs to compensate you for a lot of lost engine hours.

  

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Gents,

Lets not go too far...

The knowns...

1) some surface rust in the cylinders....

2) Cam and lifters were described as OK...

3) Go fly it!

This cleans the surface rust off the cylinders...

4) Take pics....

5) Post pics here...

6) Look up the price of a factory reman engine.... may be 40amu...(?)

7) You might prove that this plane is in better shape than you expect...

8) It is not a Lycoming IO360... so using the Lycoming negotiation may not apply...

9) Look at what a set of new cam followers is going for lately... if they have cratered, get them swapped out...

10) as it sits, it isn’t tearing the cam apart...

11) Get a drawing of the IO550 to see why the cam and lifters are different than the Lycoming... they are housed in a different place...

As far as negotiations go...

if the owner has given you all of this information up front... wasn’t that covered by the price he was offering it at?

If something like this comes up in the PPI, it’s a surprise... it wasn’t included in the previously discussed price... so a proper deduction, or fix can be expected to close the deal...

 

So... what to do with a plane that sits idle... don’t let it sit idle... machines don’t like that...

Plan on writing a purchase agreement that defines the PPI, and follow up steps if required...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

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On 3/8/2021 at 5:53 PM, GeeBee said:

If you otherwise like the airplane this may not be a deal breaker, just needs a new deal. I was in a similar position with a PA-18 I was buying. What I did was make a sales agreement, wherein, I withheld some money in escrow and took title to the airplane.  I was then to  fly the airplane  the for 50 hours. If after that it was still making metal, I retained the money in escrow. If the engine cleaned itself up, seller got the remaining funds. It takes some writing and negotiating but can be done. 

Now, you're not going to hold out the price of a complete overhaul because the seller will calculate he can sell it to some other unsuspecting buyer and avoid the beating, so the amount has to be carefully calculated and reasonable negotiated. In my case, the buyer was anxious to exit so I got a pretty good chunk of the overhaul costs out of him. Realistically you can really only pro rate it. If the engine is mid time, then about half the cost of a field overhaul would be appropriate. If it is near TBO, not a lot of money can be held out because you're going to have to O/H it anyway. If it is a young engine, well, he needs to compensate you for a lot of lost engine hours.

  

This is a great idea. I bought my first Mooney that had been sitting. It too had surface rust in the cylinder walls. I ended up doing a top end overhaul within 50 hrs, which cost me money. 

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