Found Source of Metal

[A64Pilot]

21 hours ago, kortopates said:

Yes the case must be split to change out the tappets, but splitting the case doesn't make it an overhaul. A major overhaul is a FAA legal defintion that requires replacing all the parts listed by Lycoming. Anything short of that is only an IRAN and doesn't reset the hours for TSMOH. 

I guess maybe at this point I should bring up that I’m an A&P myself since 1990 , IA for most of it, lost my IA last year when I was “locked down” in the Bahamas and couldn’t renew, will retake the **** test this year and get it back.

I do understand the process. But I guess let’s lay it out shall we? If your splitting the cases you have to inspect all of the parts anyway and only a fool wouldn’t replace bearings, which I feel certain will require to be replaced as they will have metal in them. Assume hopefully the crank is good, maybe you got lucky, but from the number of hours flown making metal, I’d budget for a crank, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

So crank goes off for magnaflux and hopefully just polishing, cases go off to Divco, new cam and lifters, comply with the Lycoming SB, inspect cylinder assemblies and its overhauled.

So what would you do different in an IRAN? 

By the way without looking it up an overhaul is defined as disassembly, cleaning, inspection and reassembly. Nothing is required to be replaced if it’s serviceable, which brings in the Lycoming SB, which does list parts that are required to be replaced.

Unless things have changed the FAA does NOT require the parts listed by Lycoming to be changed, SB’s in the US are not mandatory, even if mandatory is in their name.

‘Often SB’s get included into AD’s which are of course mandatory, but I’m not aware of any AD that incorporated Lycoming’s SB

I believe this is Lycoming’s SB,and it’s a logical replacement of parts in my opinion, but even though it’s logical, it’s not required by anything I know of in the US anyway, some other countries do require mandatory SB’s to be complied with 

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

Edited March 9, 2021 by A64Pilot

[JimB]

42 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I guess maybe at this point I should bring up that I’m an A&P myself since 1990 , IA for most of it, lost my IA last year when I was “locked down” in the Bahamas and couldn’t renew, will retake the **** test this year and get it back.

I do understand the process. But I guess let’s lay it out shall we? If your splitting the cases you have to inspect all of the parts anyway and only a fool wouldn’t replace bearings, which I feel certain will require to be replaced as they will have metal in them. Assume hopefully the crank is good, maybe you got lucky, but from the number of hours flown making metal, I’d budget for a crank, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

So crank goes off for magnaflux and hopefully just polishing, cases go off to Divco, new cam and lifters, comply with the Lycoming SB, inspect cylinder assemblies and its overhauled.

So what would you do different in an IRAN? 

By the way without looking it up an overhaul is defined as disassembly, cleaning, inspection and reassembly. Nothing is required to be replaced if it’s serviceable, which brings in the Lycoming SB, which does list parts that are required to be replaced.

Unless things have changed the FAA does NOT require the parts listed by Lycoming to be changed, SB’s in the US are not mandatory, even if mandatory is in their name.

‘Often SB’s get included into AD’s which are of course mandatory, but I’m not aware of any AD that incorporated Lycoming’s SB

I believe this is Lycoming’s SB,and it’s a logical replacement of parts in my opinion, but even though it’s logical, it’s not required by anything I know of in the US anyway, some other countries do require mandatory SB’s to be complied with 

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

As an A&P/IA/aircraft owner myself, I not only give consideration to what's safe and legal but I also consider resale value of my aircraft if and when I decide to sell. Some things may make sense now and be safe and legal, but when you have to explain it to a potential buyer in the future, it may be a little harder to explain.

Just my $.02...

[kortopates]

On 3/9/2021 at 6:14 AM, A64Pilot said:

I guess maybe at this point I should bring up that I’m an A&P myself since 1990 , IA for most of it, lost my IA last year when I was “locked down” in the Bahamas and couldn’t renew, will retake the **** test this year and get it back.

I do understand the process. But I guess let’s lay it out shall we? If your splitting the cases you have to inspect all of the parts anyway and only a fool wouldn’t replace bearings, which I feel certain will require to be replaced as they will have metal in them. Assume hopefully the crank is good, maybe you got lucky, but from the number of hours flown making metal, I’d budget for a crank, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

So crank goes off for magnaflux and hopefully just polishing, cases go off to Divco, new cam and lifters, comply with the Lycoming SB, inspect cylinder assemblies and its overhauled.

So what would you do different in an IRAN? 

By the way without looking it up an overhaul is defined as disassembly, cleaning, inspection and reassembly. Nothing is required to be replaced if it’s serviceable, which brings in the Lycoming SB, which does list parts that are required to be replaced.

Unless things have changed the FAA does NOT require the parts listed by Lycoming to be changed, SB’s in the US are not mandatory, even if mandatory is in their name.

‘Often SB’s get included into AD’s which are of course mandatory, but I’m not aware of any AD that incorporated Lycoming’s SB

I believe this is Lycoming’s SB,and it’s a logical replacement of parts in my opinion, but even though it’s logical, it’s not required by anything I know of in the US anyway, some other countries do require mandatory SB’s to be complied with 

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

Thanks for identifying yourself as another A&P/IA, that's great as we get a lot of maintenance related questions here. I am as well, and an employed by Mike Buch of Savvy Aviation as well as an independent Flight Instructor. Mike wrote an article that addresses this topic head on, discussing differences in requirements from overhaul vs IRAN and more, that I'll quote a coupe paragraphs below. But the key point is to documents that something is “overhauled” the mechanic is required by regulation to follow manufacturers guidance to the letter, and that includes complying with manufacturers overhaul manual and mandatory parts replacement list (as referenced by the OH manual, either by referencing the SB or incorportating the text of the SB into the OH or both). 

Here are a couple of the pertinent points from Mike's article:

Overhauled means disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, reassembled, and tested in accordance with the manufacturer’s approved technical data—normally the overhaul manual as supplemented by service bulletins. The word overhaul implies conformance to service limits—not necessarily new limits—so if you want new limits you have to specify a new-limits overhaul. A new-limits overhaul is essentially the same as rebuilt, except that it doesn’t have to be performed by the original manufacturer and doesn’t receive a new serial number or a zero-time logbook.

Repaired means inspected and repaired as necessary (IRAN) to restore the inoperative component to proper working condition. This term implies nothing about fits and limits, because there is no requirement to measure anything when performing a repair. One could, for example, remove a cylinder, replace a burned exhaust valve and guide, and then reinstall the cylinder without measuring anything, and call it a repair.

A repair differs from an overhaul primarily in that there’s no obligation to follow the fits, limits, mandatory parts replacements, and other procedures in the manufacturer’s overhaul manual. The FAA’s late, great Bill O’Brien—who long served as the agency’s top maintenance guru—used to drive this point home to mechanics who attended his IA renewal seminars by using this catchphrase: “If you used a micrometer, then it’s an overhaul; if you didn’t, then it’s a repair.”

.....

The words overhauled and rebuilt”are defined in FAR 43.2 and have specific regulatory meanings. If a mechanic documents that something is “overhauled” and hasn’t complied with every last jot and tittle of the overhaul manual and other manufacturer guidance (as referenced by the OH manual), he can lose his A&P certificate. However, if he documents that something is “repaired,” he can do as much or little as he sees fit to do—as long as he is satisfied that his repair work was performed properly in accordance with acceptable methods, techniques, and practices (e.g., typically the manufactureres Maintenace manual or AC 43.13.1b in the absence of manufactturer guidance)

In short, if you ask for a repair, you give the mechanic or technician considerable discretion to do only as much work as he believes needs to be done—and that’s usually a good thing, assuming the mechanic is competent and you trust his judgment. On the other hand, if you ask for an “overhaul,” you eliminate the mechanic’s discretion and require him to do everything precisely by the book as required for an Overhaul.

---------------------------

I added the text in italics above to clarify we're talking about guidance from the OH manual or maintenance manual and not just any arbittrary SB which are all optional for part 91 operators until being referenced by the OH manual and a OH is being performed making they mandatory.

The full article is available here: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/january/pilot/pe_maintenance - although it uses a Continental example, there is no difference between Lycoming and Continental.

On a personal note, as you know this is the month to renew your IA, and I am actually getting mine signed off in the next hour. But I hope you can do the interiew process  with a FSDO inspector in lieu of re-taking the exam! I know mine is very undertanding of these covid times and bending over beakcwards to help the 157 IA's in my FSDO renewing this month.

Edited March 12, 2021 by kortopates
added some clarification on SB's need to be referenced by OH manual

[MBDiagMan]

Well, the case is now split, and it will now be an overhaul.  The case and possibly the crankshaft will need attention.

[MIm20c]

Sorry to hear that after only 80 hrs. Good luck and stay positive...downtime is the pits, luckily you still have the 140. 

[MBDiagMan]

Yes, I still have the 140 and finished it’s overhaul not long ago.  It’s running like a Swiss watch and although not very fast, it beats driving.

[Hank]

12 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

. . . although not very fast, it beats driving.

To me, anything with wings beats driving. Even if it takes longer.  

[A64Pilot]

20 hours ago, kortopates said:

Thanks for identifying yourself as another A&P/IA, that's great as we get a lot of maintenance related questions here. I am as well, and an employed by Mike Buch of Savvy Aviation as well as an independent Flight Instructor. Mike wrote an article that addresses this topic head on, discussing differences in requirements from overhaul vs IRAN and more, that I'll quote a coupe paragraphs below. But the key point is to documents that something is “overhauled” the mechanic is required by regulation to follow manufacturers guidance to the letter, and that includes complying with manufacturers overhaul manual and mandatory parts replacement list. 

Here are a couple of the pertinent points from Mike's article:

Overhauled means disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, reassembled, and tested in accordance with the manufacturer’s approved technical data—normally the overhaul manual as supplemented by service bulletins. The word overhaul implies conformance to service limits—not necessarily new limits—so if you want new limits you have to specify a new-limits overhaul. A new-limits overhaul is essentially the same as rebuilt, except that it doesn’t have to be performed by the original manufacturer and doesn’t receive a new serial number or a zero-time logbook.

Repaired means inspected and repaired as necessary (IRAN) to restore the inoperative component to proper working condition. This term implies nothing about fits and limits, because there is no requirement to measure anything when performing a repair. One could, for example, remove a cylinder, replace a burned exhaust valve and guide, and then reinstall the cylinder without measuring anything, and call it a repair.

A repair differs from an overhaul primarily in that there’s no obligation to follow the fits, limits, mandatory parts replacements, and other procedures in the manufacturer’s overhaul manual. The FAA’s late, great Bill O’Brien—who long served as the agency’s top maintenance guru—used to drive this point home to mechanics who attended his IA renewal seminars by using this catchphrase: “If you used a micrometer, then it’s an overhaul; if you didn’t, then it’s a repair.”

.....

The words overhauled and rebuilt”are defined in FAR 43.2 and have specific regulatory meanings. If a mechanic documents that something is “overhauled” and hasn’t complied with every last jot and tittle of the overhaul manual and other manufacturer guidance, he can lose his A&P certificate. However, if he documents that something is “repaired,” he can do as much or little as he sees fit to do—as long as he is satisfied that his repair work was performed properly in accordance with acceptable methods, techniques, and practices.

In short, if you ask for a repair, you give the mechanic or technician considerable discretion to do only as much work as he believes needs to be done—and that’s usually a good thing, assuming the mechanic is competent and you trust his judgment. On the other hand, if you ask for an “overhaul,” you eliminate the mechanic’s discretion and require him to do everything precisely by the book.

---------------------------

The full article is available here: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/january/pilot/pe_maintenance - although it uses a Continental example, there is no difference between Lycoming and Continental.

On a personal note, as you know this is the month to renew your IA, and I am actually getting mine signed off in the next hour. But I hope you can do the interiew process  with a FSDO inspector in lieu of re-taking the exam! I know mine is very undertanding of these covid times and bending over beakcwards to help the 157 IA's in my FSDO renewing this month.

You may be taking that partially out of context.

‘Yes to overhaul, you must follow all procedures etc in the overhaul manual, but you do NOT have to comply with an SB, if that SB is incorporated into the manual then it becomes regulatory, but left in an SB it does not.

‘I don’t know why Lycoming hasn’t incorporated their SB into the overhaul manual. but if you read the SB it very plainly states that it must be followed whenever any repair or even just a disassembly to inspect is done, but being an SB eve through they use the word mandatory in the US it’s not required, many other countries a Mandatory SB is actually mandatory.

Because I know enough to look, if that SB wasn’t complied with, I wouldn’t buy that airplane, who knows what other money saving corners were cut.

‘If you read the SB, you’ll see that it’s a list of parts that any good knowledgeable mechanic is replacing anyway based on experience. I take it further and send the cases off to divco to inspected for cracks and repaired as necessary and the crank off to be disassembled, inspected for cracks and hopefully just polished but turned if necessary.

‘It’s only a couple of grand more to overhaul once you have the engine torn down, it’s not another $10,000, but it’s been a few years since I’ve done it.

‘To not spend that money and reset the overhaul clock on an engine half way to overhaul isn’t a wise decision, in my opinion. Now if it were only 100 or so hours since overhaul, then maybe not, but then also everything only has 100 hours on it, so do you really need to replace exhaust valves and rings with 100 hours on them?

But 1,000 isn’t 100.

Hiwever a repair must also comply with any repair manual if one exists, and many do, so it’s not correct to say that a repair doesn’t have to comply, if a manual exists, it does.

Edited March 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

13 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Well, the case is now split, and it will now be an overhaul.  The case and possibly the crankshaft will need attention.

Sorry to hear that, I’d hoped you would get lucky,but most don’t. Metal running around in the oil causes damage.

At least you have something to fly, I’ve got a 140 myself, engine is mid life hours wise but it’s been almost 40 years since overhaul so I need to overhaul it. I’ll probably get to that next Winter after I get the Mooney where I want it.

[MBDiagMan]

On 3/6/2021 at 8:23 PM, carusoam said:

Go IO550!  (next time...) +1 for the low cam, and removable without the mOH.

My M20C with its O360 sat outside for two years unused... prior to my purchase...

It had so much carbon in one of its valve guides it stuck a valve within my first 10hours...

Without MS, or an engine monitor... I had very little knowledge of what was going on within the engine...

 

Swapping out the cam followers for DLC’d cam followers would be an interesting preemptive maneuver...

That probably requires pulling a cylinder at a time to swap out each follower...

The cratered followers are a known cause of machining off the associated cam lobes...

Post pics if you got em...  

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

No, it is necessary to split the case to replace the lifters.

[MBDiagMan]

I should have specified that on the IO-360 A1A I is definitely necessary to split the case to change lifters.  It is certainly also necessary on other Lycoming models but I have no idea exactly which ones.  I read that there are indeed some Lycoming with barrel lifters.  The mushroom lifters in my engine though can’t be removed without splitting the case.

[kortopates]

On 3/10/2021 at 6:34 AM, A64Pilot said:

You may be taking that partially out of context.

‘Yes to overhaul, you must follow all procedures etc in the overhaul manual, but you do NOT have to comply with an SB, if that SB is incorporated into the manual then it becomes regulatory, but left in an SB it does not.

‘I don’t know why Lycoming hasn’t incorporated their SB into the overhaul manual. but if you read the SB it very plainly states that it must be followed whenever any repair or even just a disassembly to inspect is done, but being an SB eve through they use the word mandatory in the US it’s not required, many other countries a Mandatory SB is actually mandatory.

Because I know enough to look, if that SB wasn’t complied with, I wouldn’t buy that airplane, who knows what other money saving corners were cut.

‘If you read the SB, you’ll see that it’s a list of parts that any good knowledgeable mechanic is replacing anyway based on experience. I take it further and send the cases off to divco to inspected for cracks and repaired as necessary and the crank off to be disassembled, inspected for cracks and hopefully just polished but turned if necessary.

‘It’s only a couple of grand more to overhaul once you have the engine torn down, it’s not another $10,000, but it’s been a few years since I’ve done it.

‘To not spend that money and reset the overhaul clock on an engine half way to overhaul isn’t a wise decision, in my opinion. Now if it were only 100 or so hours since overhaul, then maybe not, but then also everything only has 100 hours on it, so do you really need to replace exhaust valves and rings with 100 hours on them?

But 1,000 isn’t 100.

Hiwever a repair must also comply with any repair manual if one exists, and many do, so it’s not correct to say that a repair doesn’t have to comply, if a manual exists, it does.

All agreeable points wrt to Service Bulletins. Sorry that it wasn't clear above as I'll add a couple more words to clarify the post above, but Mike is referring to all SB's referenced by the overhaul manual. You should find both Lycoming and TCM reference the list of mandatory replacement parts either directly by incorporating the text in the OH manual and/or by reference to the SB.   Lycoming does exactly that in their 360 OH manual, notice both the list of parts and the reference to the latest version of their Mandatory Replacements parts SB 240: 

TCM does the same thing, here is an excerpt of a TCM OH manual, in this example they incorporated the text directly for the mandatory replacement parts and then referenced 2 additional SB's:

1-00-04 100% REPLACEMENT PARTS.
It is recommended that the following parts be replaced 100 percent during the major overhaul
of any Teledyne Continental Motor's aircraft engine regardless of conditions.
Hydraulic Lifters
Rubber Hoses
Oil Seals
Gaskets and Packings
Circiips, Lock Plates & Retaining Rings
Piston Rings
Valve Keepers
Bearings- Main and Rod
Rubber Drive Bushings
Exhaust Valves
Piston Pins
Rotocoils
Needle Bearings
Woodruff Keys
Rocker Arm & Conn. Rod Bushings
All Nuts - Self-locking
Cotter Pins
Pistons
Springs - Oil Pressure
Thrust Washers
Generator Belts
Spring - Starter Clutch
Harnesses
Oil Suction Screens with Small Openings
Spark Plugs
Washers - Locking
Washers - Plain
Exhaust Clamps, Turbo to Tailpipe
Counterweight Bushings
Intake Guide Seals

If for any reason lifters are removed for inspection before the overhaul period has been
reached, they must be placed back in the same location from which they were removed.
CRANKCASES ALL MODELS
Re-assembly with configuration as per Service Bulletin M76-10 and M83-10 Rev. 1 or current
revision as applicable at the time major overhaul is recommended.
 

I doubt you'll find any Lyc or TCM overhaul manual where the mandatory replacement parts SB isn't referenced in the OH in some fashion making it optional.

Sorry though that the verbiage above implied any SB, I do agree that's a bit misleading and I'll add a few words to clarify that its any SB referenced in the OH manual rather than just any for part 91 operators. 

[A64Pilot]

By using the words “It Is Recommended”. that means you should, but don’t have to. If it were mandatory, it would say “The following parts MUST be replaced”.

It can even get more vague when the words  “Will, Shall and May” are used. 

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/plain_language/articles/mandatory/
 

Having said all of that, your foolish not to replace those parts, especially if your a professional.

[Hank]

31 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

It can even get more vague when the words  “Will, Shall and May” are used. 

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/plain_language/articles/mandatory/

"Shall" doesn't leave room for discussion. You gotta do whatever the Regs say you Shall do.

[A64Pilot]

Read the second paragraph of the link I posted, the Supreme Court and the FAA disagree with your definition of Shall.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Read the second paragraph of the link I posted, the Supreme Court and the FAA disagree with your definition of Shall.

Hmmmm . . . . Très intéressant! The FDA, under whose oversight I've labored lo these many years, does not appear cognizant of this discussion.

[JimB]

You also might find these FAA docs helpful as well....

Clarification of Inspection and Overhaul Requirements Under Part 91

https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/notice/n_8900.410.pdf

Reciprocating Engine Overhaul Terminology and Standards

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-11_CHG-1.pdf

Edited March 13, 2021 by JimB

[ncav8tor]

“Repaired means inspected and repaired as necessary (IRAN) to restore the inoperative component to proper working condition. This term implies nothing about fits and limits, because there is no requirement to measure anything when performing a repair. One could, for example, remove a cylinder, replace a burned exhaust valve and guide, and then reinstall the cylinder without measuring anything, and call it a repair.”

Thanks for the clarification and explanation of IRAN. I’ve seen the acronym used quite a bit on this forum and being a noob, didn’t quite know what it meant. 
 

 

[A64Pilot]

I think if I look hard enough in the FAR’s I’ll find that as a Certificated mechanic that I’m required to ensure the airworthiness of any parts that I reinstall on aircraft that doesn’t require disassembly to inspect.

So if I pull a cylinder for example, I can’t put it back together with rings worn behind limits even if I pulled it to replace a valve, but if I remove a prop governor, I don’t have to send it off for overhaul, I can reinstall it if it was working properly prior to removal.

‘An argument to that is that I don’t have fix anything, I can give a list of discrepancies to the owner / operator, but I don’t sign off anything as airworthy that isn't.

So IRAN means Inspect, Repair or Replace anything that doesn’t meet serviceable limits as Necessary, it doesn’t mean put on the blinders and only do what was asked

Finding hidden damage happens all the time, and once found it has to be addressed, you don’t put the cover back on a wing after finding a main spar crack when you were just installing an antenna.

‘An IRAN differs from an overhaul in that often an overhaul has a list of items that must be completed in order for it to be an overhaul. For example you have a 20 yr old prop that you want cleaned and resealed and painted, but you don’t want the blades re-profiled as that means metal is removed, an overhaul requires re-profiling, a repair doesn’t, so you have the prop re-sealed because your blades have insignificant wear

Edited March 20, 2021 by A64Pilot