cpdlc for GA

[RobertGary1]

Some areas of the world are mandating non-voice communications with ATC. All international airlines use this system now. Seems like a matter of time before it comes universal yet I've not heard of it at all in the GA community.

[AerostarDriver]

This would not be the end of the world for most. If your willing to pay 200 bucks a year to fltplan.com you can have PDC sent via email or direct to garmin pilot (providing data or cell coverage). If I did a ton of IFR flying in to the following airports I would absolutely pay 200 bucks a year to not have to write down and read back clearances.

FltPlan PDC Premium Service

[KB4]

5 minutes ago, AerostarDriver said:

If your willing to pay 200 bucks a year to fltplan.com you can have PDC

FF offers PDC included in Performance plus package. 

[EricJ]

From a communications reliability and efficiency standpoint, reducing voice traffic to a minimum makes the most sense and is an obvious evolutionary endpoint.  I'm a little surprised the system is still as archaic as it is with so much reliability on voice communication.    

[AerostarDriver]

1 minute ago, KB4 said:

FF offers PDC included in Pro Plus. 1 above basic FF package. 

[rbridges]

7 minutes ago, AerostarDriver said:

This would not be the end of the world for most. If your willing to pay 200 bucks a year to fltplan.com you can have PDC sent via email or direct to garmin pilot (providing data or cell coverage). If I did a ton of IFR flying in to the following airports I would absolutely pay 200 bucks a year to not have to write down and read back clearances.

FltPlan PDC Premium Service

It says it for jets and turboprops.  Maybe that's why we haven't heard much about it.

[squeaky.stow]

It’s kind of ironic that the country that invented most of this technology is the last to adopt it. Frequency hand-offs via CPDLC are pretty standard in much of the world now for those with the equipment to use it, but if you fly from Toronto to London, you will get kicked off CPDLC as you enter Boston Center and have to log back on when you enter Moncton airspace. Other services like altitude and speed changes are also becoming more common in many parts of the world and are pretty much the standard in oceanic airspace.

On the other hand, PDC clearances on the ground via CPDLC are so far the exclusive domain of the USA, so you are ahead on that front.  PDC in all other countries is delivered via ACARS datalink and is just a text print-out of your clearance. The CPDLC version has the advantage that changes to your clearance ( a different SID for example) can be pushed directly to your FMC and all you have to do is accept or reject. 
 

[Immelman]

PDC is not CPDLC

CPDLC is great for oceanic flights where the alternative is HF going through airinc.

I dont think its necessary for GA flights where you are in VHF comms.

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, AerostarDriver said:

This would not be the end of the world for most. If your willing to pay 200 bucks a year to fltplan.com you can have PDC sent via email or direct to garmin pilot (providing data or cell coverage). If I did a ton of IFR flying in to the following airports I would absolutely pay 200 bucks a year to not have to write down and read back clearances.

FltPlan PDC Premium Service

But how do you receive this airborne? The point is that atc won’t have to provide you frequency changes while flying Ifr.  

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

10 minutes ago, Immelman said:

PDC is not CPDLC

CPDLC is great for oceanic flights where the alternative is HF going through airinc.

I dont think its necessary for GA flights where you are in VHF comms.

EU has proposed mandating it for local flights. 

[squeaky.stow]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

EU has proposed mandating it for local flights. 

FWIW, I don’t see CPDLC coming to GA anytime soon in North America. Outside of Europe, CPDLC operates exclusively on the FANS (Future Air Navigation System) network which communicates via satellite. Since it is by definition, two way communication, and because the satellites are geostationary, you need expensive gear and a pretty big dish to be able to play.

In Europe they can also provide CPDLC through the ground based ATN network which is VHF, so the cost of the equipment could theoretically be made affordable for GA. To my knowledge there are no plans to bring ATN to North America.

WRT the PDC discussion, there are multiple different ways to deliver a PDC. CPDLC is just the newest way. 

[KLudwick]

On 3/3/2021 at 12:36 PM, RobertGary1 said:

But how do you receive this airborne? The point is that atc won’t have to provide you frequency changes while flying Ifr.  

-Robert

Two totally different things.  PDC = Pre-Departure Clearance.  All on the ground.  As said earlier in the thread, it basically sends you your full clearance ahead of start-up, and you just need to notify ground of your squawk code (to show you received the PDC) and that you're ready to taxi.  CPDLC is true in-flight communications via two way text messaging, per se.

[Will.iam]

Cpdlc was supposed to be mandated by 2020 for the airlines and then covid hit. We are getting airbuses with cpdlc already installed when they come off the factory assembly line. I asked houston center last fall if they could send me a text message to see if ours was active or not and center laughed and said they were supposed to get training this past spring. So as with anything FAA it’s moving at glacier speeds but it is coming. We have bets as to whether we will have onboard wifi or cpdlc first. The best benefit to GA will be when the major airlines do go cpdlc it will free up the radios so us GA pilots can transmit and receive a radio call in a much more timely manner than is at present especially around major airports. 

[squeaky.stow]

1 hour ago, Will.iam said:

asked houston center last fall if they could send me a text message to see if ours was active or not

Try logging on to KUSA next time you are flying one of the equipped fins. If it is not active you will get a rejection message.

[GeeBee]

It is likely with some equipment into the serial bus, and some software changes, the MFD portion of the Garmin G1000 and even GTN navigators would be able to handle CPDLC. It would be helpful to have a keyboard as the new NXii does. It is not terribly hard to implement into these units.

 

[Mooneymite]

17 minutes ago, squeaky.stow said:

Try logging on to KUSA next time you are flying one of the equipped fins. If it is not active you will get a rejection message.

The equipment code that is filed with your flight plan determine if the enabled ATC centers will accept your CPDLC logon.  Your company may/may not have the authorization....check with your dispatchers since they are responsible for filing the equipment codes.  AFAIK KUSA is only used for clearances at specific airports in the US, it is not for a center.

[squeaky.stow]

Just now, Mooneymite said:

The equipment code that is filed with your flight plan determine if the enabled ATC centers will accept your CPDLC logon.  Your company may/may not have the authorization....check with your dispatchers since they are responsible for filing the equipment codes.  AFAIK KUSA is only used for clearances at specific airports in the US, it is not for a center.

If your company is not authorized (crew training is a requirement among other things) you are not supposed to log on and use it, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the system won’t let you log on if you have the equipment and it is operational.

When CPDLC was still very new, my company got a couple of new 767s with satcom, ADS-C and CPDLC. We were not authorized to use it because we had not been trained and very few fins were equipped at that time, but one day over the Atlantic a bright young FO who had flown for another carrier overseas says “Watch this” and logged on to Gander Oceanic. We were immediately accepted. He logged off again pretty quick.

[Will.iam]

Just now, squeaky.stow said:

If your company is not authorized (crew training is a requirement among other things) you are not supposed to log on and use it, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the system won’t let you log on if you have the equipment and it is operational.

When CPDLC was still very new, my company got a couple of new 767s with satcom, ADS-C and CPDLC. We were not authorized to use it because we had not been trained and very few fins were equipped at that time, but one day over the Atlantic a bright young FO who had flown for another carrier overseas says “Watch this” and logged on to Gander Oceanic. We were immediately accepted. He logged off again pretty quick.

Yep that’s why i only asked if center could send us a message as we are not authorized nor trained in it’s operation but in aviation world just having the equipment on the new jets shows it’s coming as no company would pay for equipment they couldn’t use in the next few years. 
at my previous company we had cpdlc going over the Atlantic and the best part was when you requested a FL change 9 times out of 10 it was approved which was just the opposite of requesting over HF. When asked about this i did not know the CPDLC control center was not in the same building as the operators handling the HF radios. They said a computer kept track of the positions of the airplanes and if there was not another airplane within 80 miles it would approve the change. It was very frustrating when we first got TCAS and were still on HF to ask for a FL change and they would come back unable due to traffic when we could see there was no traffic for 80 miles on TCAS. 

[RobertGary1]

6 hours ago, KLudwick said:

Two totally different things.  PDC = Pre-Departure Clearance.  All on the ground.  As said earlier in the thread, it basically sends you your full clearance ahead of start-up, and you just need to notify ground of your squawk code (to show you received the PDC) and that you're ready to taxi.  CPDLC is true in-flight communications via two way text messaging, per se.

Not sure where PDC came up but I’m asking about cpdlc 

[carusoam]

Let’s see how many MSers know what this is..?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller–pilot_data_link_communications

Getting the pre-departure text was magical...  and done using existing hardware... (no additional cost)

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooneymite]

8 hours ago, squeaky.stow said:

If your company is not authorized (crew training is a requirement among other things) you are not supposed to log on and use it, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the system won’t let you log on if you have the equipment and it is operational.

When CPDLC was still very new, my company got a couple of new 767s with satcom, ADS-C and CPDLC. We were not authorized to use it because we had not been trained and very few fins were equipped at that time, but one day over the Atlantic a bright young FO who had flown for another carrier overseas says “Watch this” and logged on to Gander Oceanic. We were immediately accepted. He logged off again pretty quick.

I was referring to domestic CPDLC equipment code.

I suspect that your international equipment code reflected CPDLC.

[Mooneymite]

It is way past time for CPDLC.  Voice communication for critical flight information is archaic.

On a recent transcon, with nothing better to do, I began counting the transmissions that had to be repeated in a 20 minute period.  This was not a high density approach environment.  Most transmissions were just frequency changes.

In that brief (random) period, 43% of the transmissions were not properly received, or understood without repeating.  Errors included wrong call signs by center, acknowledgement by multiple aircraft with similar call signs, (mostly) aircraft not acknowledging a transmission necessitating a second, or third call.  There were hear-readback errors by both pilots and controllers on spelling 5 letter identifiers.

Certainly, during the high altitude in-route portion of a flight there may not be the same degree of vigilance as on an approach frequency, but 43%! ?!  If CPDLC was just used for frequency changes, life would improve.

The ability to upload a route mod directly into the FMS from a CPDLC message decreases the chance of error in copying and manually typing in numerous reroute points.

Yes.  It's high time for CPDLC for everyone, but the cost?  Right now it's significant.