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Desperately need long range tanks


garuda

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1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

I figure that there is a (small) monetary benefit to long range tanks.

There are several airports around that have fuel as much as $1.50 per gallon less than my home airport.

So sometime of my training flying consists of puttering around doing local approaches and then filling up on the cheap stuff.  I have often taken on $80 gal.  So do that a few times a year and claim your spot in the CB club.

Yup.  Brown Field and Big Bear typically have the cheapest fuel in SoCal.  Tankering fuel from Big Bear isn't such a good idea during hot and high summer days, though.

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2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I figure that there is a (small) monetary benefit to long range tanks.

It is not uncommon to have to pay as much as 1300$ for a 200lt (53 gal) barrel of AVGAS in some african countries. Thid yields to 25$/gal compared to 10$ in a neighboring country. Thus the need for LR tanks. But at 30k, it makes more sense to just carry the fuel in cans (or in a turtlepac) although it would take all the baggage compartment space and limit the quantity to 20gal only.

 

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Just now, garuda said:

It is not uncommon to have to pay as much as 1300$ for a 200lt (53 gal) barrel of AVGAS in some african countries. Thid yields to 25$/gal compared to 10$ in a neighboring country. Thus the need for LR tanks. But at 30k, it makes more sense to just carry the fuel in cans (or in a turtlepac) although it would take all the baggage compartment space and limit the quantity to 20gal only.

 

Wow that is expensive.

This summer we had a record (in my memory) low of $2.87 at KRME.  

I wish I could have gotten jerry cans.  But they are strictly forbidden to fly with loose fuel in the us, for obvious reasons.

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12 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Another reason why it makes no sense to even dream about the possibility of any future Missile or Rocket conversions. Without the big tanks they are DOA.

My rocket didn't have lr tanks for the first 6 of the last 11 years I owned it (and it was a 1996 conversion).  It flew great and I still loved it.  It is definitely even better now, but not out of the realm of good.

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2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

But they are strictly forbidden to fly with loose fuel in the us, for obvious reasons

of course it is unsafe whether forbidden or not. But in some cases, it isn't even a question of cost. Avgas is not available in many places in africa so you can't even go there if you don't have enough fuel for your return flight. Unless Jose Monroy decides to get back to business, there seems to be no other solution

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31 minutes ago, Tim Jodice said:

is it possible for the factory to upgrade older airframes with newer fuel tank design like modifying a K model to have a Bravo (89G?) system?

That would be neat.  That would add yet another 15 gal to all of us, including those with already lr tanks.

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The factory (or anyone, for that matter) can upgrade the fuel tanks if those modifications can be done IAW approved data, in this case, the original Mooney prints used to manufacture the wings with long range tanks.  

The key is, were there changes made to the wing to incorporate the long range tanks that cannot be adapted to an older design wing.

AND, can you gain access to the prints through either Mooney or an MSC.

Answers to those two questions determine whether support of a DER will be required.

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20 minutes ago, 47U said:

The factory (or anyone, for that matter) can upgrade the fuel tanks if those modifications can be done IAW approved data, in this case, the original Mooney prints used to manufacture the wings with long range tanks.  

The key is, were there changes made to the wing to incorporate the long range tanks that cannot be adapted to an older design wing.

AND, can you gain access to the prints through either Mooney or an MSC.

Answers to those two questions determine whether support of a DER will be required.

The factory never made “long range” tanks - Jose Monroy had the STC for that and the factory would install them for those that wanted them and pay for the STC.

The factory did have an option for “Extended Range” tanks, which had to do with the filler neck.

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Later Mooneys were designed with the 100g and 130g tanks in mind... ( LBs)

When you look at other Mooneys that got extended tanks... you might see things like an extra fuel cap...

A certain family of Mooneys, the extend fuel quantity skips a bay of the wing...

Another oddity is where to find the speed brakes...

Fuel tanks and speed brakes have a tendency to fight for the same space....

 

100g (nominal) is standard for LBs...  check your POH to see what your plane says you have... the bays max out with 100, adding the next bay makes it 130...

Then fill your tanks to see how much actually goes in there....

If you have an Eagle... compare the fill neck to other long bodies.... use caution, the lower engine power was matched to lower MGTW...

There is a known mod for the Eagle’s fuel neck...

The POH is the official resource of what you have... the max expected amount is labeled in about three different places...

Next to the caps, next to the fuel gauges, and probably one other place...(?)

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

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20 hours ago, garuda said:

Is this something which could be done on the K? Even adding 5 gal per tank would mean a lot

 

Got a pic of what you have?

This can tell a lot about expectations for changing out this part...

Best regards,

-a-

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When I bought my K I asked here on MS if full tanks, 75 gal, was to the bottom of the filler neck or as much fuel as one could could stuff in while being patient. I didn't get any real good answers. The POH does not say. Logic would say 75 gallons is to the bottom of the filler neck since it gets pretty tedious to fill past that. But when my JPI + CIES was installed and the shop calibrated the system it turned out that 75 gallons is as much as you can stuff in. It is about 5 gallons total, or 2.5 gallons per side, between the bottom of the filler neck and totally full.

 

A couple years ago I was in North Las Vegas. I asked the line guys to fill the plane as full as possible. We were there for a week. As departure day got closer, I find that I should expect 45 Kt headwinds all the way back to KRHV. So I wanted the plane really full. Call the FBO and find out how much fuel was loaded, and it was short. So I went out and supervised the truck put an additional 12 gallons in a supposedly full pair of tanks. Only maybe 1 in 10 times will an un-supervised line guy be patient enough to really top off the airplane. I've had to call for a top-off a few times when I really needed every last gallon.

 

Larry

 

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22 hours ago, garuda said:

Is this something which could be done on the K? Even adding 5 gal per tank would mean a lot

 

No, a different kind of filler neck with anti-siphon. But feel free to fill past the bottom of the filler neck and burp the tank till you can't add more.

Best thing to do though is empty the tanks completely and measure exactly what you can put into the tank after adding the unusable to the dry tank - you may be surprised to learn what your real tank capacity is. But bottom of the filler neck is the offical full per the factory.

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On 3/3/2021 at 10:33 AM, MisfitSELF said:

This is discouraging.  I had some long terms plans of flying my Mooney across the Atlantic and was thinking of putting these long range tanks on in the next 6-9 years.

As mentioned, there are ferry tank systems that can be added via a 337, and this is commonly done for long overwater flights in many different types of aircraft.  They are temporary installations that can be removed once no longer needed.

 

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On 3/4/2021 at 9:45 PM, garuda said:

It is not uncommon to have to pay as much as 1300$ for a 200lt (53 gal) barrel of AVGAS in some african countries. Thid yields to 25$/gal compared to 10$ in a neighboring country. Thus the need for LR tanks. But at 30k, it makes more sense to just carry the fuel in cans (or in a turtlepac) although it would take all the baggage compartment space and limit the quantity to 20gal only.

 

With respect, this is an irrelevant argument. Apart from South Africa, the only reason you'd be flying a Mooney anywhere in the rest of Africa is when you're ferrying it to or from South Africa.  And for that you'd have ferry tanks.  

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1 hour ago, pwnel said:

Apart from South Africa, the only reason you'd be flying a Mooney anywhere in the rest of Africa

Allow me to disagree with you on this point. there are many countries in africa where the distances far exceed the autonomy of our planes. For example if you want to fly to lokichogio (HKLK) from nairobi (HKNW) and back, you have to send barrels of fuel to loki a few days before you fly there! I can cite many more similar or worse examples in other african countries.
This point is however irrelevant to the subjet which is how to get long range tanks whatever the purpose of the need is.

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10 hours ago, garuda said:

12 more gallons would solve my problem! I'll definitely check the real capacity of my tanks

I think you mis-understood my post. My tanks hold 75 gallons according to the POH. After the CIES install we know that to get 75 gallons we need to fill to the very brim. The line staff filled the plane to their version of full, but in reality my aircraft was only fueled to 63 gallons that day. One can absolutely not put 87 gallons in my K.

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Fuel necks vary...

From Ks with flapper valves...

To Ovations that barely have a fuel neck...

To Eagles the fuel neck is so long... it annoys the owner...

Some Mooney fuel necks got a calibrated fill line scratched into the neck, like a fuel tab of sorts...

Most necks are made of stainless steel...  in the 60s, they were made of mild steel and got painted on the top side... the bottom side was known for dropping little rust particles in the fuel... or a cryptic hole drilled in the side of the neck...

For each new owner... the first lesson is to determine how much usable fuel fits in the tanks... and how to get it there...

So.... empty them out... the last gallon, use the fuel pump... so you know it was usable...  :)

Fill the tank one gallon at a time... build yourself a calibrated stick at the same time...

It really helps to level the plane in both axis.... park on a flat surface.... not really level the plane...

The tanks can’t be over filled this way... the tank vent is so far up hill, the fuel will pour out the hole you are putting it in first...

Of course, if you fill it while parked on a hill... you might find fuel dripping out a vent on one side...

Why it takes so long to get the last 6gallons into the tanks....  ribs... there are ribs in the plane... and tiny holes that allow fuel and air to pass through the ribs...  

Yes those ribs... the structural things that support the forces of flight... we have tiny holes that allow fuel to pass through at the bottom while going empty.... and air to pass through at the top while going full....

If you fill your tanks, then come back 15 minutes later... it may look like fuel leaked out... probably about six gallons...

Between the POH and the instrument panel, and sometimes on the wing next to the cap... there are three places that mentions the standard amount of useable fuel...

Review all the placards/decals... there is a list in the POH limitations section... to see if you have them all...

Always use caution when getting to know your plane and using fuel... it is easy to get sparks when the air is dry...

Garuda, thanks for sharing the awesome details regarding Mooney flying in Africa...   we have a few MSers in South Africa.   But, not many throughout the continent...

I’m glad you are here... :)

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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