AD2009-22-03

[Stick]

Can anyone explain to me how this AD affects the E and F models? Seems a lot of people are paying for eddy current inspections every 100 hours that are not required.

[RLCarter]

AD 2001-23-08 might be what they are having done

[Stick]

That one applies to 300+ HP engines

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Stick.

Got a link to that AD?

I can guess what it is...

The prop AD has been around for years... My O360 in my M20C had it...

Some people have replaced their prop...

Others complied with the AD through a different method... like red dye in the prop hub...

Some traded in their plane to get a different one....

Unless you are talking about a different AD... compliance is a pain... but I don’t think anyone is complying unnecessarily...

 

Spend a moment describing what you are talking about... bring us up to speed, like you are...

The more info you supply, the better the discussion becomes...

I haven’t had a prop with an AD for more than a decade....

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyMitch]

55 minutes ago, carusoam said:

but I don’t think anyone is complying unnecessarily...

Where might one discover the amount of discrepant hubs that have been discovered via the AD ? 

[carusoam]

4 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Where might one discover the amount of discrepant hubs that have been discovered via the AD ? 

That would require a search...

I believe MS has about two... one was a non-Mooney example.  When the mechanic took the hub off the plane the broken case fell apart...

So... it is a real issue...

Fortunately, not a very real issue for Mooney owners...

Keep in mind... I didn’t look up this particular AD, I’m just guessing...  

I left it to the OP to supply some more detail...

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyMitch]

8 minutes ago, carusoam said:

That would require a search...

I believe MS has about two... one was a non-Mooney example.  When the mechanic took the hub off the plane the broken case fell apart...

So... it is a real issue...

Fortunately, not a very real issue for Mooney owners...

Keep in mind... I didn’t look up this particular AD, I’m just guessing...  

I left it to the OP to supply some more detail...

Best regards,

-a-

I thought possibly a data base exists which gives validity to the continuance of the Eddy current test for the hubs.  Maybe it does, I just need to search (as you suggest). Hmmm! 

My propeller shop ( for 33), to the best of my knowledge, has never discovered a descrepant hub via the AD.

You are correct, it is a pain!!  I am, and have been since the AD inception, wondered is it, or was it a knee jerk reaction to limited situations, or as others ( love that term ), a political move to sell new propellers?

Have I mentioned the AD is a HUGE pain? 

[carusoam]

Costly huge pain...

Especially if you need to fly an hour to get it done... 

See what it takes to get the Mooney off the list...

We could ask our prop guy...

But I’m a bit il-prepared... can’t go to the prop guy without knowing the AD...   

Past midnight in the east coast... still going through the rest of the reading...

-a-

[MooneyMitch]

27 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Especially if you need to fly an hour to get it done... 

Or in my situation, remove prop and transport via ground transportation.   Did I mention PIA? 

It is late, even on the left coast ! 

 

[Stick]

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/6b6b68153b98376a8625765c005290eb/$FILE/2009-22-03.pdf

 

Clarification Needed in Engine/Model Listing One commenter states that the applicable model list of aircraft and engines seems to indicate that all of the aircraft/engines mentioned are 180 horsepower, yet the propeller applicable model list covers propellers installed on counterweighted angle valve engines which are 200 horsepower. Specific inclusion or exclusion of counterweighted engines and valve configuration (whichever is the case) needs to be incorporated for clarification; or the aircraft/engine model list needs to be finite instead of, ''not limited to.'' We agree that clarification is needed to define the engine models and airplane models that are affected by this AD. We changed the AD to clarify the callouts for the engine and airplane model listing

If you look at the engine and aircraft listing the IO360 A1A is not listed, The M2oF is also not listed the M20E is listed incorrectly as a Master 21 in one place and as having a 180 HP engine in another The only 200 HP engines listed are the Seneca 1 , No other aircraft with the 200 are on the list per the paragraph above. the B,C and G models are correctly listed with their 180 HP engines. I'm just wondering why E and F model owners are dishing out money every 100 hours when the AD apparently dosen't apply to their aircraft?

[mooniac15u]

4 minutes ago, Stick said:

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/6b6b68153b98376a8625765c005290eb/$FILE/2009-22-03.pdf

 

Clarification Needed in Engine/Model Listing One commenter states that the applicable model list of aircraft and engines seems to indicate that all of the aircraft/engines mentioned are 180 horsepower, yet the propeller applicable model list covers propellers installed on counterweighted angle valve engines which are 200 horsepower. Specific inclusion or exclusion of counterweighted engines and valve configuration (whichever is the case) needs to be incorporated for clarification; or the aircraft/engine model list needs to be finite instead of, ''not limited to.'' We agree that clarification is needed to define the engine models and airplane models that are affected by this AD. We changed the AD to clarify the callouts for the engine and airplane model listing

If you look at the engine and aircraft listing the IO360 A1A is not listed, The M2oF is also not listed the M20E is listed incorrectly as a Master 21 in one place and as having a 180 HP engine in another The only 200 HP engines listed are the Seneca 1 , No other aircraft with the 200 are on the list per the paragraph above. the B,C and G models are correctly listed with their 180 HP engines. I'm just wondering why E and F model owners are dishing out money every 100 hours when the AD apparently dosen't apply to their aircraft?

The comments aren't regulatory.  Only the text of the actual AD matters.  You can see under applicability that it give the series identifiers for the hubs which match what is listed on the type certificate for the E and F models and specifies that they are installed on Lycoming engines including the IO-360 series..  The list of aircraft has the following caveat:

"These propellers and engines could be installed on, but not limited to:"

Which means the list isn't comprehensive and you have to determine applicability from the prior text.

[Stick]

All of the IO 360 engines listed are the 180 HP variety 

You state "These propellers and engines could be installed on, but not limited to:" would that not mean the propellers and engines on the list of affected aircraft.

The paragraph I posted seems to specifically exclude the 200 HP engines.  We changed the AD to clarify the callouts for the engine and airplane model listing.

"These propellers and engines could be installed on, but not limited to:" This means this engine propeller combination may be installed on airframes not listed such as home builds, ie: RV series or one off prototypes. I do not believe the would provide a list and intentionally leave of every airplane built in the 60's and 70's with a 200 HP Lycoming and the stated propeller. IE: Arrow, Sierra, Cardinal RG etc.

This is the poorest example of an AD I have seen in my 40+ years in aviation.

[mooniac15u]

15 minutes ago, Stick said:

All of the IO 360 engines listed are the 180 HP variety 

You state "These propellers and engines could be installed on, but not limited to:" would that not mean the propellers and engines on the list of affected aircraft.

The paragraph I posted seems to specifically exclude the 200 HP engines.  We changed the AD to clarify the callouts for the engine and airplane model listing.

"These propellers and engines could be installed on, but not limited to:" This means this engine propeller combination may be installed on airframes not listed such as home builds, ie: RV series or one off prototypes. I do not believe the would provide a list and intentionally leave of every airplane built in the 60's and 70's with a 200 HP Lycoming and the stated propeller. IE: Arrow, Sierra, Cardinal RG etc.

This is the poorest example of an AD I have seen in my 40+ years in aviation.

The applicability paragraph lists engine series like TO-, LTO, and TIO-360  that aren't anywhere in the table so clearly the table is not a comprehensive list of applicability.

It is definitely a poorly written AD but I think you will have a hard time convincing the FAA that the M20E and M20F aren't included.

[Raymond J1]

In fact, no matter which engine this propeller means is mounted on, it turn that the Hartzell Type HC two-blade means ages badly with blades operating under large pitch, high torque and consequent diameter. This is typically the case with the 360 cu.inch operating at less than 2400 rpm on fast aircraft. The control by "penetrant" is indeed an alternative to that by induction as mentioned by Carusoam. The AD clearly specifies what brand and type of hub it is. Note that the same type of hub, in 3-blade version, offering a higher fullness to the propeller, is not concerned. Some" E "and" F " also use the Hartzell propeller and this offending hub.

[Cody Stallings]

It’s about the P/N of the Hub itself, not so much the plane/engine it’s bolted to.

 

[Jeff Reiter]

Is my prop(photo attached) an A or B prop? It has never been eddy current inspected. What does the BF stamp mean?

[MB65E]

1 hour ago, Jeff Reiter said:

Is my prop(photo attached) an A or B prop? It has never been eddy current inspected. What does the BF stamp mean?

I believe The AD applies to this propeller. The AD applies to “non suffix” ending SN’s. It would not apply if it had an A or B at the end of the SN. Sucks I know. Mine was the same way. Signed off for years by the prior owners IA. Many people think it’s the PN and not the SN. It’s the SN that matters. A work around is getting an “A” Hub. Some restrictions on the A still, but better than the eddy current inspection.

-Matt

[MikeOH]

On 7/21/2023 at 1:48 PM, MB65E said:

The AD applies to “non suffix” ending SN’s....Many people think it’s the PN and not the SN. It’s the SN that matters.

@Cody Stallings

Is this true?

[MB65E]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

@Cody Stallings

Is this true?

[AIREMATT]

Mine has a similar SN but with a B on the end. I assume that is the SN suffix that negates the AD requirements?