Buying my First Plane and it's a 67' Mooney M20C!

[FlyingFool]

Hey all,

I'm new here.  I have been snooping on here while shopping for my first plane.  I was shopping for Cessna 210's and Mooney's.  I'm happy to report I'm under contract on this guy!  I'm nervous, scared and excited all at the same time.  

I'm having my mechanic do a pre-buy on it.  He's not a Mooney expert.  What are some key things to look for on these older models?  I'm guessing engine mounts, and leaking fuel tanks, but what else?

Any help or idea's would be great. What would be the first thing you would improve on, fix or change?

 

Thanks,

 https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/201610701/1967-mooney-m20c-mark-21-piston-single-aircraft

Edited February 27, 2021 by FlyingFool

[Hank]

Welcome! She looks nice.

My first plane was (is) a 1970 M20-C with full steam gage panel.

You're gonna love it!!! 

[hammdo]

Wheel wells, spar for signs of corrosion. Have him remove the belly pans and

ck the stub spar (for the flaps) for any cracks:

spar splice cap for corrosion:

 

fuel leaks (fuel senders, wheel well, fill tanks and look for seeping rivets on wing walk)

control rods rusting, fuel selector/drain, gear donuts/disks

open all panels for sure, look for guide blocks wearing on the controls in empennage..

congrats on the plane! I have a ‘66 ;o)

-Don

 

 

[Jakes Simmons]

Congratulations!  I think you are going to be just fine with this one. You have already started from a good place by going with GMax. Follow the advice of Mike Busch on operating on condition and I think the engine overhaul could still be years away. I’m jealous you are buying some one else’s panel upgrade...much cheaper way to go than paying for it yourself. I speak from recent experience. Have fun!

[FlyingFool]

She seems pretty solid and clean so far.  I don't see any damage history either.  I'm excited. Anyone in Phoenix want interested in giving a couple hours of dual?

Thanks,

Edited February 27, 2021 by FlyingFool

[FlyingFool]

51 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Wheel wells, spar for signs of corrosion. Have him remove the belly pans and

ck the stub spar (for the flaps) for any cracks:

spar splice cap for corrosion:

 

fuel leaks (fuel senders, wheel well, fill tanks and look for seeping rivets on wing walk)

control rods rusting, fuel selector/drain, gear donuts/disks

open all panels for sure, look for guide blocks wearing on the controls in empennage..

congrats on the plane! I have a ‘66 ;o)

-Don

 

 

Thanks hammdo

[carusoam]

Holy cow...

She looks original, unloved, untouched for decades...

Tons of updates required...

Just kidding...   

 

Seriously, looks like somebody took a liking to her and did plenty of updates all over...

As a potential buyer, keep both eyes open looking for anything that can possibly go wrong...

 

Transition Training is always recommended...

Do you have insurance for her already?

PP thoughts only, not a CFI nor mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[FlyingFool]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Holy cow...

She looks original, unloved, untouched for decades...

Tons of updates required...

Just kidding...   

 

Seriously, looks like somebody took a liking to her and did plenty of updates all over...

As a potential buyer, keep both eyes open looking for anything that can possibly go wrong...

 

Transition Training is always recommended...

Do you have insurance for her already?

PP thoughts only, not a CFI nor mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

I have quotes but no instance plan yet.  I will lock it in once I get past the pre-buy look.  

I'm an ATP with 8,000 hours so I hope they don't suck me dry.  LOL

[carusoam]

Only 8k?

See if Parker has anything that fits for that many hours...   

Parker Woodruff is a Mooney pilot / insurance man that supplies insurance for many MSers...

I can invite him here...  he has been helpful for many...   @Parker_Woodruff

No requirement to use his service to stay on MS...

FF,

When you get a chance, see if you can add a location to your avatar area...  this will be helpful along the way...

Best regards,

-a-

[SSimpson77]

Great looking C! I agree, you’re paying half price for those avionics! 
Make sure to ask for a SB-208 inspection, tubular frame inspection. The great thing is buying a runout engine you aren’t as stressed about cam issues and lifters. Just make sure she makes rated power if you plan on trying to get a few years out of her/him, that’s what’s most important in an engine. 
Fuel Tank sealant? All paperwork with the STC’s? Logs? Corrosion in wheel wells? I can tell you who not to use for a PPI but if you grab someone from Arizona, you’ll be okay. 
Best of luck! Great plane and great group of Mooniacs here

[Sixstring2k]

Looks like a keeper, fingers crossed that the ppi goes well with no major issues and you can fly her home..

[Niko182]

4 hours ago, FlyingFool said:

She seems pretty solid and clean so far.  I don't see any damage history either.  I'm excited. Anyone in Phoenix want interested in giving a couple hours of dual?

Thanks,

I'd probably PM this guy if I was looking for an instructor in the PHX area.
@KLRDMD

[0TreeLemur]

This question not directed at the original poster because he obviously thinks it is appropriately priced.  

With 2300 SMOH, is this airplane appropriately priced?    Yes, it's got some nice instruments in the panel, but no engine monitor, no AP, no 201 windshield.  What affect does having an engine 15% past the recommended overhaul time on insurability/hull value?  It seems to me that in estimating the cost of the a/c with an overtime engine, it isn't too far off to add the full cost of an overhaul to the price and that's essentially what the cost of this C is.  Seems high to me. 

Do a couple of a G5's and a new GPS add that much resale value? 

I wonder when the tanks were re-sealed?  No mention of bladders.   If more than 7-10 years since resealing, I'd add that pro-rated expense to the "gonna have to pay it sooner rather than later" column.

Except for the overtime engine, she seems like a nice bird.  We own a '67C too.   I'm just surprised this one is selling $52k.

I hope the pre-buy goes well.

[chriscalandro]

1 hour ago, 0TreeLemur said:

This question not directed at the original poster because he obviously thinks it is appropriately priced.  

With 2300 SMOH, is this airplane appropriately priced?    Yes, it's got some nice instruments in the panel, but no engine monitor, no AP, no 201 windshield.  What affect does having an engine 15% past the recommended overhaul time on insurability/hull value?  It seems to me that in estimating the cost of the a/c with an overtime engine, it isn't too far off to add the full cost of an overhaul to the price and that's essentially what the cost of this C is.  Seems high to me. 

Do a couple of a G5's and a new GPS add that much resale value? 

I wonder when the tanks were re-sealed?  No mention of bladders.   If more than 7-10 years since resealing, I'd add that pro-rated expense to the "gonna have to pay it sooner rather than later" column.

Except for the overtime engine, she seems like a nice bird.  We own a '67C too.   I'm just surprised this one is selling $52k.

I hope the pre-buy goes well.

Time doesn’t dictate reseal requirements. Airplanes that were resealed last year sometimes develop leaks and airplanes sealed in the 60s never leaked. The only benefit to a recent reseal is if a warranty comes with it. 
 

otherwise, is it leaking? No? Then it doesn’t need a reseal. Yes? Then have someone patch it or reseal it. 
 

enough of this time bs. People believe too much of what they read on the internet. 
 

based on how this airplanes equipped, I’d say that’s a pretty decent deal. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by chriscalandro

[KLRDMD]

10 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I'd probably PM this guy if I was looking for an instructor in the PHX area.
@KLRDMD

Happy to help if I'm available when you need someone.

[FlyingFool]

5 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

This question not directed at the original poster because he obviously thinks it is appropriately priced.  

With 2300 SMOH, is this airplane appropriately priced?    Yes, it's got some nice instruments in the panel, but no engine monitor, no AP, no 201 windshield.  What affect does having an engine 15% past the recommended overhaul time on insurability/hull value?  It seems to me that in estimating the cost of the a/c with an overtime engine, it isn't too far off to add the full cost of an overhaul to the price and that's essentially what the cost of this C is.  Seems high to me. 

Do a couple of a G5's and a new GPS add that much resale value? 

I wonder when the tanks were re-sealed?  No mention of bladders.   If more than 7-10 years since resealing, I'd add that pro-rated expense to the "gonna have to pay it sooner rather than later" column.

Except for the overtime engine, she seems like a nice bird.  We own a '67C too.   I'm just surprised this one is selling $52k.

I hope the pre-buy goes well.

What would you say it's worth with a Zero time engine?

[SSimpson77]

9 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

This question not directed at the original poster because he obviously thinks it is appropriately priced.  

With 2300 SMOH, is this airplane appropriately priced?    Yes, it's got some nice instruments in the panel, but no engine monitor, no AP, no 201 windshield.  What affect does having an engine 15% past the recommended overhaul time on insurability/hull value?  It seems to me that in estimating the cost of the a/c with an overtime engine, it isn't too far off to add the full cost of an overhaul to the price and that's essentially what the cost of this C is.  Seems high to me. 

Do a couple of a G5's and a new GPS add that much resale value? 

I wonder when the tanks were re-sealed?  No mention of bladders.   If more than 7-10 years since resealing, I'd add that pro-rated expense to the "gonna have to pay it sooner rather than later" column.

Except for the overtime engine, she seems like a nice bird.  We own a '67C too.   I'm just surprised this one is selling $52k.

I hope the pre-buy goes well.

I hope this plane is worth every bit of $52k and then some and both seller and buyer feel good about transaction. Beauty and deal is in the eye of the beholder, some of us just happen to see monetary value in every part bolted to the plane and its depreciation rate. 
My tanks haven’t been sealed since 1992! I’m sure someone was trying to tell the previous owner back in 1999 ,”boy, them tanks are 7 years old, gonna have to kick that down about $4,000 because they might leak tomorrow”(circa1999)

What are you hoping to save, $3k maybe $7k tops. I know I’ve lost that and gained that in a few months of our crazy market we’re in.

If she flies good, you got the money, and the support, I’d go for it. I only regret the things I haven’t done!

[Nokomis449]

5 hours ago, FlyingFool said:

What would you say it's worth with a Zero time engine?

It's hard to get a detailed valuation online because you can never pick all the specific options of a particular airplane, so you have to interpolate some values.  The AOPA website has a V-ref aircraft valuation (it might be a members only page).  If you haven't found https://themooneyflyer.com/ yet it's a great, free resource of Mooney information in online monthly magazine format (donations accepted) with an aircraft valuation section.  I've plugged my Mooney info into both systems and in my opinion the V-ref is usually lower than I'd like, and the Mooney Flyer valuation is a bit optimistic.  I'd say if the valuations are within 10% or so of asking price, it's probably worth a look.

[0TreeLemur]

2 hours ago, SSimpson77 said:

My tanks haven’t been sealed since 1992!

Most have.  You are either lucky, or it wasn't logged.   It happens but not often.   That's all I'm saying.

[0TreeLemur]

6 hours ago, FlyingFool said:

What would you say it's worth with a Zero time engine?

There is a valley of dearth in the Mooney price distribution between about 65-90k, except maybe the occasional problem J.   Assuming this bird with an overtime engine is worth $52k, with a zero time engine that would put it squarely in the middle of where there are none.   Maybe its changed recently and I haven't been watching prices lately.  I'm skeptical, but maybe I'm wrong.   Have C prices been going up considerably?

[Robert67]

Nice looking bird!!!

Does anyone know where to buy the  SB kit#20-217 for the spar splice doubler?

Thanks

Robert 67M20F

 

[Andy95W]

LASAR used to make them in house.  They probably still do.  You can likely get the kit through them regardless.

[FlyingFool]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

LASAR used to make them in house.  They probably still do.  You can likely get the kit through them regardless.

Anyone know why all the LASAR STC information and parts are gone?  They were listed last week.  Is something going on?

 

[carusoam]

Try again... 

https://lasar.com

looks like some links are getting updated...

https://lasar.com/parts

Call and Ask for Dan.

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

In the first tier of Mooneys, M20J's set the values. In other words, It would be difficult to sell an F for more than a comparable J. All things being equal, most buyers would take a J over an F. The same thing goes for an E being constrained by F values. There are a few more buyers out there that would prefer an E over an F, but on average, an E will struggle to bring more money than a comparable F. And M20C's are behind the E's. These are of course generalizations, and there are outlier exceptions for all cases. But the trends are clear. 

All Mooney values have been going up over the last six or seven years. And the J's are leading the pack. But all the rest are stuck in the queue behind the J.