Looking for advice

[Indy]

Hello, I am looking at a 1968 Mooney M20G, TTAF 1500. Overhauled Engine. Beautiful original paint and original interior with original avionics. The bad thing is that it was overhauled 20 years ago, But the engine was Pickled properly according to the paperwork shortly after the engine was overhauled. any information you provide would be useful..

[MikeOH]

Sorry, unless this plane is nearly free, I'd move on.  Even pickled, 20 years is a long, long time.  You might get lucky, but if you don't you'll be in for $20K to $30K, plus the cost of updating avionics.  What's a G with a mid-time engine and decent avionics going for?  Will you be at that number after an OH and updated avionics?

Breaks my rule of the most important thing in shopping for a plane: Recent use!

[irishpilot]

You may get lucky, but assume an engine not used will need a lot of work as you start to fly it. Best case, it will need on a cylinder or two. Worst case, you'll need to perform another overhaul. Run the numbers and see if it offsets the selling price.

[carusoam]

Indy, what type of aviation experience do you have... you probably mentioned it... I just forgot.   
 

Some planes are great for other people...

let’s say you have a lot of engine experience... and know what you are looking for....

Let’s say you have installed dozens of radios in other people’s planes...

let’s say you have experience restoring old cars...

Let’s say you are feeling lucky...

Lets say you want to own a plane... so you can tell all you friends...   “I own a plane”

These are all good reasons to go forwards and buy this plane...

 

If none of that is in your interest...

Let’s say you just want to fly an M20G that hasn’t had a flight in decades...

This one would be perfect!

 

 

Let’s say you want to fly a plane once every week and this one seems affordable....

maybe you want to get your IR in it....

If all you want to do is fly it...

An extensive PPI would be important for your safety... and the safety of your wallet...

If you know a Mooney mechanic... you can get honest opinions of what you have, and what you should get done before flying it...

 

The bottom line... planes, cars, boats, machines.... don’t like to sit idle for decades... 

If somebody paid to store this properly... that would be thousands of dollars every year for those decades...

Look for proof, that somebody was taking care of this thing as if it mattered...

This pane could be good for you...

It will definitely be good for somebody...

So... tell us about yourself, what drives you?

Best regards,

-a-

[chriscalandro]

Every time someone asks this question everyone here automatically says it's junk and not to buy it.  If people listened to the buying advice here there wouldn't be a single Mooney over 10 years old in the air.

 

Any airplane within your budget that fits your needs is worth at least looking at.

 

It was overhauled 20 years ago.  How long did it fly before being pickled? 

Do you have someone that can look at the motor for you?

Where is the airplane?

 

Nobody here has any idea what this airplane is except maybe the person that owns it.  Go look at it.  If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, but if it's what you want, at least give it a look before you let a bunch of people on the internet who have 0 clue about it tell you it's bad.

 

You are never going to make, or maintain an airplane as an investment as a private owner.  It doesn't work that way.  It's an expensive hobby.  Trying to get an airplane minus what it costs to fix it is NOT how it works despite what the internet will tell you.

[MikeOH]

Sure, some of us come out of the woodwork to say, "NO." When someone posts this question it's not to much of a stretch to assume they are a first time buyer....even to assume they are looking for a 'low price'. The PRUDENT thing to do is WARN them that buying LOW is rarely a good idea.  You are right, it MIGHT work out fine, but odds say it probably will not.  As @carusoamsummarizes, there's a lot more to it.  If they already have the requisite skills and experience he mentions, then it's another safe assumption that this question wouldn't have been posted in the first place.

It isn't a matter of how old the plane is.  A plane that has been sitting for 20 years is going to have more than just the engine that needs attending to.  How much is it going cost to go look at it?  How much to have a sufficiently in depth PPI done?  WHY?  There are recently flown models where the OP's time, and money, is probably better spent.

NOT trying to discourage anyone.  I just hate to see anyone starting out have a bad experience.

[carusoam]

Chris,

After all that...

What is your recommendation for the fine person asking for advice?

How would you approach the purchase of this interesting barn find?

Best regards,

-a-

[chriscalandro]

Just now, carusoam said:

Chris,

After all that...

What is your recommendation for the fine person asking for advice?

How would you approach the purchase of this interesting barn find?

Best regards,

-a-

Check point 2 and point 3

[carusoam]

22 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

Check point 2 and point 3

Thanks, sort of...

I read your points... you said everyone here automatically....

I didn’t fit that category... I spent a fair amount of time crafting what I thought was a pretty good post...

I offered to help focus your points so the OP could understand what you meant...

It comes across in a way you probably didn’t mean...

Yes, some people accidentally bash a plane for sale... because we are not perfect writers...

Yes, some people bash other writers... hmmmmm...  I don’t get the point of this.

None of this helps the OP...

Welcome to the club of people having difficulty writing...  

You might get used to it after awhile...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

Engines are a crapshoot.   Was the cam replaced when it was OHed?   There is a fine line to what could be a bad metallurgy cam and one that might be good.   If you have an extra 10K after you purchase and don't mind fixing things then go for it.   If you want to just fly a plane then buy something that is recently flying.  

[N201MKTurbo]

Where was the airplane? 
 

There is a big difference between storing a plane in Arizona and Florida. 
 

If it was here, it would be fine 100 years from now. Except the paint and rubber. 

[irishpilot]

On 2/22/2021 at 9:03 PM, chriscalandro said:

Every time someone asks this question everyone here automatically says it's junk and not to buy it.  If people listened to the buying advice here there wouldn't be a single Mooney over 10 years old in the air.

 

Any airplane within your budget that fits your needs is worth at least looking at.

 

It was overhauled 20 years ago.  How long did it fly before being pickled? 

Do you have someone that can look at the motor for you?

Where is the airplane?

 

Nobody here has any idea what this airplane is except maybe the person that owns it.  Go look at it.  If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, but if it's what you want, at least give it a look before you let a bunch of people on the internet who have 0 clue about it tell you it's bad.

 

You are never going to make, or maintain an airplane as an investment as a private owner.  It doesn't work that way.  It's an expensive hobby.  Trying to get an airplane minus what it costs to fix it is NOT how it works despite what the internet will tell you.

I respectfully disagree. Deferred Mx is a bill someone has to pay. An owner who sells a plane with deferred mx or that sat decades is trying to avoid that cost. As long as a potential buyer knows that a plane sitting can lead to big bills, they make their purchase informed. Some people like getting a plane that needs work because they get to choose how the work is performed. Others want to buy a plane that won't need a lot of down time.

BTW, no one said this plane is junk. 

[Nokomis449]

I'd love to see another G reclaim the sky!  As @N201MKTurbo mentioned, location and storage method will be important.  An extensive PPI is a must and will be expensive money well spent, even if you have to walk away after that money is gone.  See the recent thread where mice urine has led to spar corrosion, and the cost to repair may well exceed the value.  Don't let emotion outweigh facts - the time to fall in love with it is AFTER a well-informed purchase.

I once looked at a Citabria that had been stored in a guy's climate-controlled basement for 15 years with wings removed.  He had flown it the day he brought it home, so in his mind all it needed was the wings bolted back on and it would be flyable.   I really wanted it.  But the wooden spar AD was still fresh, and new metal spars (my preference for compliance) would run about $15-$20k.  The fabric was borderline due to age, and an engine sitting that long should at least be disassembled if not rebuilt (per my IA who looked at it with me).  All things considered, if the man had GIVEN me the plane, I would have more $$ in it that it's worth before it'd ever take to the sky.  That was 10 years ago and as far as I know it's still in his basement.

There's a nice '99 Maule MXT-180 that I've flown, sitting in a hangar on a chicken farm.  A year or so after the owner died I offered the family a reasonable amount for it (he was a friend), but they were still emotionally attached to it and turned me down.  It's now been sitting for 12-15 years and quickly approaching the "free to good home" price range.

Sitting is not good for a plane.  I hope it works out for you, because a G is a great plane.  Another guy in a recent thread was looking at a G that has sat unflown for a year or two or three.  You might look at that one to get an idea of the price difference between 20 years unflown and a few years unflown, and determine if the price difference is worth the risk difference.

Good luck with your journey!

[KLRDMD]

3 minutes ago, Nokomis449 said:

Sitting is not good for a plane.  I hope it works out for you, because a G is a great plane.  Another guy in a recent thread was looking at a G that has sat unflown for a year or two or three.  You might look at that one to get an idea of the price difference between 20 years unflown and a few years unflown, and determine if the price difference is worth the risk difference.

The other G has an asking price of $45k. A buying price would be lower.

[gsxrpilot]

There's nothing wrong with buying an M20G that's been sitting for 20 years. But just be aware that by the time you have flown it for a year, it will have been the most expensive M20G in the fleet. And you will have likely spent more on it than you could have spent on a C, E, or F, that needed nothing and were turn-key, ready to fly.

All we're trying to say is that it's often more expensive to buy an airplane that's been sitting, than it is to buy one that's flying regularly. 

[Seth]

23 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

There's nothing wrong with buying an M20G that's been sitting for 20 years. But just be aware that by the time you have flown it for a year, it will have been the most expensive M20G in the fleet. And you will have likely spent more on it than you could have spent on a C, E, or F, that needed nothing and were turn-key, ready to fly.

All we're trying to say is that it's often more expensive to buy an airplane that's been sitting, than it is to buy one that's flying regularly. 

This

[Seth]

The M20G is the slowest Mooney, and still faster than nearly any other 180 HP aircraft not named Mooney.

That said, 20 years sitting, the airplane is worth $5k-$7k for parts if out of annual. If annulled, a little bit more, but the engine is pickled, which means it hasn't been run, which means likely it's not in annual. If you can pick it up for $5k, you can deal with the deferred maintenance. 

If you are looking for a low cost Mooney that has been flying contact Alan Fox. He may very well have an aircraft for you.

Good luck and welcome to Mooneyspace! 

 

-Seth

[Yetti]

10 hours ago, Seth said:

The M20G is the slowest Mooney, and still faster than nearly any other 180 HP aircraft not named Mooney.

That said, 20 years sitting, the airplane is worth $5k-$7k for parts if out of annual. If annulled, a little bit more, but the engine is pickled, which means it hasn't been run, which means likely it's not in annual. If you can pick it up for $5k, you can deal with the deferred maintenance. 

If you are looking for a low cost Mooney that has been flying contact Alan Fox. He may very well have an aircraft for you.

Good luck and welcome to Mooneyspace! 

 

-Seth

I would say the part out price is way higher  you could get 5K for the engine to go to a RV build and another 10K in control surfaces. Probably another 5K in small parts.

[jaylw314]

14 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

If it is priced right this may be a great opportunity for a hands on and mechanically-inclined buyer looking for a low cost VFR Mooney flyer. 

I think that's the key qualifier there.