Cumulative Effect of Speed Mods?

[HH60HLDG 1]

Aspiring Mooniac here...retired navy pilot looking for fast, economical, & reasonably long range business & personal transportation.  Thinking that an M20K would be definitely on the short list.  Seeing a few for sale that have the single piece belly skin and most of the speed mods...gap seals, wing root filets, etc... Can anyone comment on how many knots are a reasonable expectation with "compound" mods?

Next, are the Mooniacs tracking on or in talks with Deltahawk on future use of their 2stroke turbo-diesels as possible replacements for the older GB's & LB's...when if finally comes out?  

TIA,

Leon

[Ragsf15e 1,121]

Welcome!

Some of the speed mods are better than others, but they generally aren’t cumulative.  If they were, my F would be faster than a J!  I don’t know the specifics on the K model mods, but someone will be able to tell you the desirable ones.  I’m guessing their first recommendation is the engine upgrade that provides an automatic waste gate.  The early Ks have a more challenging setup for engine management which often led to early top overhaul.

 The diesel would be great, and I can’t wait to hear people’s thoughts on eventually having that as an option!

[carusoam 12,812]

Welcome aboard Leon!

Thank you for your service...

For modern day sailing... grab a 50kt tail wind (or more) and combine that with your TC’d Mooney’s awesome cruise speeds in the lower FLs...

What could be better than that?

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam 12,812]

For actual speed numbers of real Mooneys aloft... have a look at Flight aware...

Check some real tail numbers...

And see some real numbers...

If you want to know about speed mods... that gain a knot here or there...

weren’t we discussing flying in the FLs.... and catching tailwinds?

Where in there would be the the smooth belly panel...?

 

If your interest is speed and efficiency...

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[B00kem22 4]

@carusoamyour replies always remind me of "Deep Thought's" from SNL.  

[HH60HLDG 1]

Thanks Gents!

 

[anthonydesmet 87]

Thought this would be a good place to ask this question.  I have to remove inner/lower right gear door fairing for some much needed fiberglass repair/maybe order a new one.  Previous owner had some mis-rig and chafing so over the last few years we have been building the top part of the door with fiberglass repair to try and keep enough overlap with the metal door but it just isn’t tall enough so I think I am going to start from scratch. Question is, besides thoughts on a new one, Is how many knots do you think it will cost with the fairing pulled......

just to keep the Saturday interesting.....

[jaylw314 1,411]

On 2/21/2021 at 1:00 PM, HH60HLDG said:

Aspiring Mooniac here...retired navy pilot looking for fast, economical, & reasonably long range business & personal transportation.  Thinking that an M20K would be definitely on the short list.  Seeing a few for sale that have the single piece belly skin and most of the speed mods...gap seals, wing root filets, etc... Can anyone comment on how many knots are a reasonable expectation with "compound" mods?

Next, are the Mooniacs tracking on or in talks with Deltahawk on future use of their 2stroke turbo-diesels as possible replacements for the older GB's & LB's...when if finally comes out?  

TIA,

Leon

I've been tracking the Deltahawk motor starting 15 years ago for my RV project.  It looks to be pretty much in the same development stage today as it was then.

I've heard of no plans to get an STC for Mooneys

[gsxrpilot 12,116]

On 2/21/2021 at 3:00 PM, HH60HLDG said:

Thinking that an M20K would be definitely on the short list.  Seeing a few for sale that have the single piece belly skin and most of the speed mods...gap seals, wing root filets, etc... Can anyone comment on how many knots are a reasonable expectation with "compound" mods?

I don't think there are many speed mods available for the K's. There is a little bit of refinement from the 231 to the 252, but they're not really speed mods. 

[Ragsf15e 1,121]

1 hour ago, anthonydesmet said:

Thought this would be a good place to ask this question.  I have to remove inner/lower right gear door fairing for some much needed fiberglass repair/maybe order a new one.  Previous owner had some mis-rig and chafing so over the last few years we have been building the top part of the door with fiberglass repair to try and keep enough overlap with the metal door but it just isn’t tall enough so I think I am going to start from scratch. Question is, besides thoughts on a new one, Is how many knots do you think it will cost with the fairing pulled......

just to keep the Saturday interesting.....

I have zero info to base this guess on, but I think less than (but about) 1 knot.

[TerryDubYa 7]

Deltahawk? Phhhttt.  The development of their 2 stroke diesel has been absolutely glacial.  I remember 20 years ago at OSH, they were saying deliveries for experimentals were within a few quarters.  Zoche aero-diesels was also prominent back then and they've gone nowhere.  Vaporware.  If the folks in Racine "ever" do come out with a certified power plant, think of the nostalgia of pulling the prop through on your inverted-V engine to check for hydraulic lock, just like your favorite radial warbird.  I wouldn't hold my breath...

[N201MKTurbo 5,835]

21 hours ago, anthonydesmet said:

Thought this would be a good place to ask this question.  I have to remove inner/lower right gear door fairing for some much needed fiberglass repair/maybe order a new one.  Previous owner had some mis-rig and chafing so over the last few years we have been building the top part of the door with fiberglass repair to try and keep enough overlap with the metal door but it just isn’t tall enough so I think I am going to start from scratch. Question is, besides thoughts on a new one, Is how many knots do you think it will cost with the fairing pulled......

just to keep the Saturday interesting.....

I doubt you could measure it.

I think somebody on here had molds to make fiberglass versions of those. You should look around. I think it might be @DonMuncy

To get those to line up, you have to start with the landing gear. They should come up even. They should both just kiss the rubber bumpers in the wheel wells. While there is no specific adjustment for this, other than the up limit switch, if they aren't even you need to go completely through your gear rigging until they are even. You may have to put some shim washers behind the mounting screws and "Adjust" the front mounting bracket to get the lower doors to sit just right. They shouldn't be destroying the rear fairings.

[DonMuncy 2,730]

I have made some, but the quality was not very good. If you want cheap, and high quality is not paramount, let me know.

[Yetti 3,817]

It's been said if you add up all the speed mods for the older Mooney's they will be supersonic.

[steingar 2,431]

To the OP.  If a K isn't fast enough you should either be looking at the long bodies with the bigger engines or be looking for something that burns kerosene.  Not that many airplanes faster than a Mooney. Not unless you go experimental and get a Lanceair.  Oh, and thank you for your service to our great nation.

 

[HH60HLDG 1]

Oh I'm all about a LIVP if I could get it & me insured!  But meanwhile we have to live in reality so Mooney's & Columbia/Cessna's are top of the doable list.  The big 6 cylinder engines don't seem to add as many knots as they do GPH, hence the M20K's being the logical choice from both an acquisition & operating cost perspective.  

[louisut 29]

Mooneys are already pretty slippery as-is, so aerodynamic mods will only net you a couple knots here and there. An often overlooked way to increase speed is to reduce weight either from the plane or the meat bags inside. This is doubly beneficial because it also improves useful load for when you need to load to max gross.

[Hank 8,418]

36 minutes ago, HH60HLDG said:

Oh I'm all about a LIVP if I could get it & me insured!  But meanwhile we have to live in reality so Mooney's & Columbia/Cessna's are top of the doable list.  The big 6 cylinder engines don't seem to add as many knots as they do GPH, hence the M20K's being the logical choice from both an acquisition & operating cost perspective.  

Then look for a K with the Encore conversion. There aren't a whole lot, but some are still being upgraded (here by @Parker_Woodruff and @gsxrpilot that I can think of offhand).

[Shadrach 3,612]

2 hours ago, HH60HLDG said:

Oh I'm all about a LIVP if I could get it & me insured!  But meanwhile we have to live in reality so Mooney's & Columbia/Cessna's are top of the doable list.  The big 6 cylinder engines don't seem to add as many knots as they do GPH, hence the M20K's being the logical choice from both an acquisition & operating cost perspective.  

Insurance in an IVP is cost prohibitive (relatively speaking) for a retired naval aviator?  If I didn't need 4 seats, I'd be thinking about a Glassair III.

Edited March 2 by Shadrach

[HH60HLDG 1]

Seems like insuring a high performance experimental has become either cost prohibitive or impossible for most people as the insurance market has hardened!  

[steingar 2,431]

I still think the speed mod that gives the most bang for the buck is extra gas.  Fuel stops slow you down more than anything.

[INA201 322]

These discussions come up periodically and usually many parameters and mods are discussed.  
Bang for the buck

1.  Proper rigging is number one to start with.

2. Rearward CG

3. A clean and waxed plane

4.  Old antennae’s removed 

5.  Better air filter....works! And adds at least 1/2 inch of MP I can confirm 1/2 inch but seems like even more higher up.  http://donaldsonaerospace-defense.com/library/files/documents/pdfs/007217.pdf

6.  Make sure engine mounts are not sagging and engine is aligned properly. 

The above will yield collectively 5 knots and quite possibly a lot more depending on the plane and how it is set up currently. 
 

$$$Buck with some bang

1.  Lopresti cowling(may not be available for the k)

2.  Get the fin VOR antennae

3.  Replace old reverse 7 antennae if on your plane.

4.  Mount all external antennae in the wing tips. 
5. power flow exhaust(not sure of the effectiveness here)

6. Fancy new prop.  
7.  New engine assuming the old one is not producing full power. 
 

Probably others and I can’t comment on the $$$buck with some bang part due to the economics.  I wasn’t willing to commit to. 

 

 

 

 

 

[HH60HLDG 1]

3 minutes ago, INA201 said:

These discussions come up periodically and usually many parameters and mods are discussed.  
Bang for the buck

1.  Proper rigging is number one to start with.

2. Rearward CG

3. A clean and waxed plane

4.  Old antennae’s removed 

5.  Better air filter....works! And adds at least 1/2 inch of MP I can confirm 1/2 inch but seems like even more higher up.  http://donaldsonaerospace-defense.com/library/files/documents/pdfs/007217.pdf

6.  Make sure engine mounts are not sagging and engine is aligned properly. 

The above will yield collectively 5 knots and quite possibly a lot more depending on the plane and how it is set up currently. 
 

$$$Buck with some bang

1.  Lopresti cowling(may not be available for the k)

2.  Get the fin VOR antennae

3.  Replace old reverse 7 antennae if on your plane.

4.  Mount all external antennae in the wing tips. 
5. power flow exhaust(not sure of the effectiveness here)

6. Fancy new prop.  
7.  New engine assuming the old one is not producing full power. 
 

Probably others and I can’t comment on the $$$buck with some bang part due to the economics.  I wasn’t willing to commit to. 

 

 

 

 

 

Awesome feedback, thanks!

[gsxrpilot 12,116]

3 minutes ago, INA201 said:

These discussions come up periodically and usually many parameters and mods are discussed.  
Bang for the buck

1.  Proper rigging is number one to start with.

2. Rearward CG

3. A clean and waxed plane

4.  Old antennae’s removed 

5.  Better air filter....works! And adds at least 1/2 inch of MP I can confirm 1/2 inch but seems like even more higher up.  http://donaldsonaerospace-defense.com/library/files/documents/pdfs/007217.pdf

6.  Make sure engine mounts are not sagging and engine is aligned properly. 

The above will yield collectively 5 knots and quite possibly a lot more depending on the plane and how it is set up currently. 
 

$$$Buck with some bang

1.  Lopresti cowling(may not be available for the k)

2.  Get the fin VOR antennae

3.  Replace old reverse 7 antennae if on your plane.

4.  Mount all external antennae in the wing tips. 
5. power flow exhaust(not sure of the effectiveness here)

6. Fancy new prop.  
7.  New engine assuming the old one is not producing full power. 
 

Probably others and I can’t comment on the $$$buck with some bang part due to the economics.  I wasn’t willing to commit to. 

All of these are good ideas for C, E, F, and maybe some J's. But don't really apply to the K's. 

1,2,3,6 are good for all airplanes in general. 

We're probably still using the antenna's as the panels are somewhat more modern already and we don't have the reverse 7 antenna. Air filters and power flow exhaust don't apply to turbo engines and there aren't any better prop's or cowl's for the K than what came from the factory.

231 to 252 to Encore is how you get a faster M20K.

[MooneyMitch 2,411]

The big 6 cylinder engines don't seem to add as many knots as they do GPH

6 hours ago, HH60HLDG said:

 

I disagree......... my former Ovation, 280HP, IO550G, above 8,000 ft, 20-30LOP, 12.5 gph 174 kts.  All approximate as things do vary a bit with contributing factors.   Regardless, it’s a lot of speed for the buck.

The best cumulative speed mods for Mooney is the Acclaim!