"Bare Minimal" Required Garmin Databases

[MisfitSELF]

I recently upgraded my bird to dual GI-275 and a GTN-750.  The Garmin database architecture still confuses me.   In addition, the product line up and bundles seems like it's designed to separate me from my money rather than give me what I really need to be compliant.

I was wondering if anybody knows exactly which database(s) or bundles do I need to be able to utilize my setup for legacy (ILS/VOR) and GPS approaches.  I've had one friend tell me all I need is the "navigation database" for the 750 but if I'm doing LPV approaches is that enough?  He also added that if the plate I'm flying is older than the database that I may not even need to update anything.  And must I purchase the updates for both my 275 and 750?

I'm looking for the bare minimal here and your thoughts on why I should get any additional databases I should have above "bare minimal".

For this assume:
I fly in the lower 48 states.  I may fly to Canada or Europe in the distant future.
I fly ILS, VOR and GPS approaches.  I use Foreflight (with an active subscription) or paper for my plates on a yoke mount.
I have a second "old school" VOR receiver and display that I use for setting up the missed approach for ILS or VOR approaches.

[Niko182]

51 minutes ago, MisfitSELF said:

I recently upgraded my bird to dual GI-275 and a GTN-750.  The Garmin database architecture still confuses me.   In addition, the product line up and bundles seems like it's designed to separate me from my money rather than give me what I really need to be compliant.

I was wondering if anybody knows exactly which database(s) or bundles do I need to be able to utilize my setup for legacy (ILS/VOR) and GPS approaches.  I've had one friend tell me all I need is the "navigation database" for the 750 but if I'm doing LPV approaches is that enough?  He also added that if the plate I'm flying is older than the database that I may not even need to update anything.  And must I purchase the updates for both my 275 and 750?

I'm looking for the bare minimal here and your thoughts on why I should get any additional databases I should have above "bare minimal".

For this assume:
I fly in the lower 48 states.  I may fly to Canada or Europe in the distant future.
I fly ILS, VOR and GPS approaches.  I use Foreflight (with an active subscription) or paper for my plates on a yoke mount.
I have a second "old school" VOR receiver and display that I use for setting up the missed approach for ILS or VOR approaches.

Database is really all you need. Id recommend terrain on top of that with obstacles. Having everything is worthwhile however. Being able to read the charts on the screen is nice.

[MisfitSELF]

30 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Database is really all you need. Id recommend terrain on top of that with obstacles. Having everything is worthwhile however. Being able to read the charts on the screen is nice.

Which database?

[Niko182]

13 minutes ago, MisfitSELF said:

Which database?

Navigation database.

[toto]

Yep, the minimum is the $299 navdata subscription for the GTN.  You're legal for enroute and all approaches.

I do the $299 subscription and then a one-time update for the airport information and safetaxi.  I don't really worry about frequencies or runway diagrams changing every 28 days.  This approach still saves a couple hundred bucks over the onepak.

The onepak is slightly more valuable if you use Garmin Pilot instead of Foreflight, since it includes the VFR subscription to Pilot - but you'd still have to pay to upgrade it to the IFR version.  (Garmin calls these "Standard" and "Pro.")

[MisfitSELF]

toto,

That was very helpful, thanks!

Bruce

[Bob - S50]

Just the Navigation Data PROVIDED you have the current approach plates either on your tablet or printed.

[ArtVandelay]

The onepak is slightly more valuable if you use Garmin Pilot instead of Foreflight, since it includes the VFR subscription to Pilot - but you'd still have to pay to upgrade it to the IFR version.  (Garmin calls these "Standard" and "Pro.")

I think you have it backwards, I bought the GP subscription, and got the free upgrade to IFR version.

[toto]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

I think you have it backwards, I bought the GP subscription, and got the free upgrade to IFR version.

Well, in any case, the onepak covers half of it

[RobertGary1]

I'm told that eventually the 275 will share the database with the GPS. For now its annoying that it says its 5 databases are out of date and you fly around with a yellow triangle in the attitude indicator all the time. Most of those databases aren't even accessible when in PFD/MFD mode. However I have started using the safetaxi on the MFD because it shows ground traffic on taxiways. Its pretty cool, you see a triangle on any taxiway another plane is on.

I also update the database in my GNC 255 just because its really nice to look at it and know you're on the right CTAF and because the FAA has and does seem to fiddle with CTAF frequencies on occasion.

Personally I don't think the onpak is even close to worth it.

[toto]

5 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I don't think the onpak is even close to worth it

The value proposition is *much* different if you have two navigators.  If you want navdata for each one, and the minimum is $299/year, you're basically at $600.  The onepak packages start at $649, which would include both navigators, plus a portable device, plus the GP upgrade.  And you would get all of the databases - not just the navdata.  So if you had two 430W units, you would get the navdata plus all of the other stuff for only $49 more than the navdata-only subscription.

OTOH, if you had one 430W then you're paying a minimum of $649 vs the cheap option at $299, and my opinion is that the other stuff isn't remotely worth the extra $350.

 

United States Standard OnePak

$649.00

Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, IFR/VFR Charts, Terrain, Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin Pilot Premium Upgrade.

[M016576]

On 1/21/2021 at 4:01 PM, Bob - S50 said:

Just the Navigation Data PROVIDED you have the current approach plates either on your tablet or printed.

Of course... It’s hard to shoot an approach without an approach plate.

[M016576]

All of this stuff is basically highway robbery seeing as Jeppesen gets the data for free from the NGA, then just parses it to the nav standard for whatever box needs it.  
 

I have an avidyne IFD440.  I buy the us navdata for 299/year... and that’s it.  The IFD had a built in wifi terminal so I just sync up my iPad to that and use FlyQ (bought the lifetime ifr subscription to that in 2013 for $400) for my approach plates.  
 

im fairly certain I’m close to the ultimate CB solution that still includes GPS approach capability.  The 430W, if I’m remembering correctly, didn’t require the databases to be updated to be legal for area navigation so long as you backed up the point with a chart.  All waas gps navigators do require a current database though to be legal for an instrument approach (which seems pretty common-sensical)

[donkaye]

13 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Personally I don't think the onpak is even close to worth it.

That depends.  If you have the G500 TXi, the GTN 750Xi, the GTN 650Xi, a handheld like the 796 or 760, and use Garmin Pilot with IFR Charts, it's an outstanding deal.

[Bob - S50]

8 hours ago, donkaye said:

That depends.  If you have the G500 TXi, the GTN 750Xi, the GTN 650Xi, a handheld like the 796 or 760, and use Garmin Pilot with IFR Charts, it's an outstanding deal.

Agree.  Our plane has two GTN650's and an Aero 796.  Getting the OnePack lets us get ALL the databases AND charts for the 796 for about what it would cost for just the Navigation Data for the two GTN650's.

[larryb]

It’s a cost of doing business. If you are putting $80k into a nice IFR panel and you are flying IFR in a traveling airplane why would you have less than a full set of database in all your boxes? VFR only? Then sure, economizing on databases makes sense.

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, larryb said:

It’s a cost of doing business. If you are putting $80k into a nice IFR panel and you are flying IFR in a traveling airplane why would you have less than a full set of database in all your boxes? VFR only? Then sure, economizing on databases makes sense.

Exactly, most of us didn't buy a GTN 750 to not use its many outstanding features like being able to display the georeferenced approach chart. With a GTN650, sure, we may have only have the iPad to show the chart if not a MFD such as in the G500. But if the GI-275 requires a separate subscription, then the Garmin and Jepp Packs provide a great value! 

But back in the GNS430W days, all I ever used was a Nav data subscriptions (and charts) since I figured I never flew low enough to care enough about obstacles enough and scorched earth terrain doesn't change that much. 

[M016576]

1 hour ago, larryb said:

It’s a cost of doing business. If you are putting $80k into a nice IFR panel and you are flying IFR in a traveling airplane why would you have less than a full set of database in all your boxes? VFR only? Then sure, economizing on databases makes sense.

Because they aren’t useful or necessary for every IFR flyer so spending $1000 a year on databases doesn’t make sense when you have all the capability you need for $300.

Example:  I don’t use my panel mount GPS as a visual reference for navigation because it’s waaaayyyyyy over in the center of the panel, away from my MFD and PFD which are conveniently right in front of me.  Since I don’t look at it.... ever.... except to verify data entry... why would I need approach plates on it?  Or obstacles updated?  When was the last time the terrain model was updated, while we’re at it (the answer is 2015): so why would I pay for updates for that if it hasn’t changed in 6 years and likely won’t ever again (unless a meteor hits and all of a sudden the NGA re-maps DTED from orbit again... unlikely at best).

you could say “it’s a great to have plates/obstacles as a backup”. But I’ve got 2 EFBs in the cockpit with me that I’m actually referencing in addition to the Aspen PFD/MFD and if I’m planning to fly into known IMC in advance- I actually print off paper plates for the destination (they are free these days, crazy, I know) and alternates as my “oh $ht” backup in the event both of my EFB’s die simultaneously.

the argument to keep obstacles Updated is actually more relevant for VFR flight than IFR- as all IFR flight and approaches are certified to maintain a certain distance from obstacles.  Obviously one has deviated off their approach or altitude in IMC they may run into an obstacle... so there is some semblance of safety backup in that case... but multiple safety functions in the approach would have to go wrong for the updated obstacle database to be the “glove save” that saves the aircraft/safety/life.  Not saying it isn’t possible to get in that situation while ifr... just that it’s unlikely (and unlikely it would make a difference imo- but that’s a whole different argument).

I do keep my Aspen MAX MFD’s plates up to date.  But an MFD is of more utility to me for displaying charts than a panel mount GPS.  Seattle avionics has lifetime subscriptions for Aspen mfds: I paid $799 for a lifetime subscription about 3 years ago for that during their Black Friday sale one year... in 3 years I’m already ahead money wise in just subscription prices.  It’s almost like my Aspen/Avidyne panel is paying for itself compared to the garmin stuff that’s more expensive to keep updated.  Then again- I’m a self admitted member of the CB club.

YMMV.  All just my opinion.  I’m a known anti-garmin guy too lol

[M016576]

9 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Exactly, most of us didn't buy a GTN 750 to not use its many outstanding features like being able to display the georeferenced approach chart.

Do you really look at the 750 often on an approach and get utility out of that feature?  Or is it more of a “that’s neato”?  How do you use the geo referenced approach plates on your GTN750 that functionally changes or improves your personal IFR procedures (I’m asking because I don’t see the utility- but I haven’t spent much time using one- so I’m probably missing something).  I find turning my head to look at the center of the panel while under imc to not be all that great from a spatial D perspective.  If the autopilot is on that’s less of a factor, but handflying I prefer to keep my scan localized to my primary flight instruments (PFD/mfd).  I just don’t see why anyone would be looking at their GPS during an approach for any extended period of time other than to cross check that their flight plan / approach is properly loaded/activated/sequenced and the radios tuned.  All the actual Nav/flying/approach shooting is done on the PFD/mfd- or at least that’s how I’ve always flown.  

I guess if all you had in the panel was the 750- then using that more for situational awareness would make sense.  But even an iPad sitting on my yoke/lap is of more situational awareness utility to me than displays located in the radio stack (assuming you’ve got some sort of waas gps in the panel along with that iPad).  Particularly if you’ve got a wifi or Bluetooth gateway parroting all that sweet data.

JMHO

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, M016576 said:

Do you really look at the 750 often on an approach and get utility out of that feature?  Or is it more of a “that’s neato”?  How do you use the geo referenced approach plates on your GTN750 that functionally changes or improves your personal IFR procedures (I’m asking because I don’t see the utility- but I haven’t spent much time using one- so I’m probably missing something).  I find turning my head to look at the center of the panel while under imc to not be all that great from a spatial D perspective.  If the autopilot is on that’s less of a factor, but handflying I prefer to keep my scan localized to my primary flight instruments (PFD/mfd).  I just don’t see why anyone would be looking at their GPS during an approach for any extended period of time other than to cross check that their flight plan / approach is properly loaded/activated/sequenced and the radios tuned.  All the actual Nav/flying/approach shooting is done on the PFD/mfd- or at least that’s how I’ve always flown.  

I guess if all you had in the panel was the 750- then using that more for situational awareness would make sense.  But even an iPad sitting on my yoke/lap is of more situational awareness utility to me than displays located in the radio stack (assuming you’ve got some sort of waas gps in the panel along with that iPad).  Particularly if you’ve got a wifi or Bluetooth gateway parroting all that sweet data.

JMHO

Jon, First off I entirely agree with your post above in terms of what you really need - well expressed too on the importance of obstacles to IFR vs VFR as well as the DTED data. Jepp did issue a new Terrain database just a couple months ago, I assume Garmin did too, but don't recall. But I get all my data from Jepp because I use the plane south of the border a lot when we don't have a pandemic going on - now I am to frightened to risk getting sick elsewhere. Especially with the new CDC rule going into effect in a couple days requiring a Covid test within 72 hrs of returning to the US that also applies to GA (although crew is exempt).

I have the 2 GPS's (GTN 750 & 650) and I always keep the GTN650 default data page in my scan when doing approaches. I taught myself years ago when we first got WAAS that DTK and TRK where the two most important data fields to flying an accurate approaches IFR; especially partial panel as I teach it to IFR students. The Approach plate on the 750 right above just really helps improve my situational awareness but also helps with step down altitudes on NPA's without +V guidance. I am a firm believer is adjusting my lateral nav based on seeing by TRK diverge from my DTK on the GPS well before I see HSI CDI diverge. In a partial panel situation it makes it easy to fly partial panel to ATP standards. Admittedly, now that I have G500 in pilot position, much of this data is available there too. But that's my wife's seat and since I fly from the right seat, I am already looking to my left for everything. Closest is actually the GPS's then the digital backup ESI-500 which is like a mini-aspen (it does navigation too) and then the G500.  Here is a picture that better shows it. I don't have charts on the G500 though, even though my subscription covers it, because we can both see it fine on the GTN. 

But I think you expressed it very well. What we actually need and what we like to utilize as personal preferences are two very different things. A lot of what I have is very admittedly far from what is needed. But I love the enjoyment I get from flying with a precision that is easier to maintain with the help of advanced avionics. I am sure my preferences are very biased from a career in tech as an engineer. Once one really knows their avionics well, advanced glass its utterly simple elegance IMO. I teach on all though with Aspen, Avidyne  and Garmin but my panel speaks to what I think is best of breed.  

Incidentally, a Mooney I acquired years ago had a GPS on the far right. I had them move it to the center stack because its just was not very useful there IMO. Years ago, I also had MX20 installed. Due to poor communication it got installed on the far right too - again useless from the pilot seat. So I had the AP moved to the far right to allow the MX20 to sit above the 2 GNS430s in the center stack. That was nirvana in the day!

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by kortopates

[ArtVandelay]

There are needs and there are wants.
You don’t need an airplane, you want an airplane.
Some want all their databases to be current and multiple sources.
Don’t begrudge someone for spending a little extra money to get what they want...after all, you did.

[M016576]

21 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

There are needs and there are wants.
You don’t need an airplane, you want an airplane.
Some want all their databases to be current and multiple sources.
Don’t begrudge someone for spending a little extra money to get what they want...after all, you did.

I don’t begrudge for those that want to keep all their potential databases up to date, and if I came off that way- I apologize- it was not my intention.  The title of the thread is “bare minimum” garmin databases... and some of the posts seemed incredulous that anyone *wouldn’t* have the full database selection for their panel.  I outlined why I don’t... and it helps me (as someone that’s not independently wealthy and struggles to stay “in the GA game”) manage costs and afford avgas, while still having fullly legal and safe ifr capability. 

[M016576]

47 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Jon, First off I entirely agree with your post above in terms of what you really need - well expressed too on the importance of obstacles to IFR vs VFR as well as the DTED data. Jepp did issue a new Terrain database just a couple months ago, I assume Garmin did too, but don't recall. But I get all my data from Jepp because I use the plane south of the border a lot when we don't have a pandemic going on - now I am to frightened to risk getting sick elsewhere. Especially with the new CDC rule going into effect in a couple days requiring a Covid test within 72 hrs of returning to the US that also applies to GA (although crew is exempt).

I have the 2 GPS's (GTN 750 & 650) and I always keep the GTN650 default data page in my scan when doing approaches. I taught myself years ago when we first got WAAS that DTK and TRK where the two most important data fields to flying an accurate approaches IFR; especially partial panel as I teach it to IFR students. The Approach plate on the 750 right above just really helps improve my situational awareness but also helps with step down altitudes on NPA's without +V guidance. I am a firm believer is adjusting my lateral nav based on seeing by TRK diverge from my DTK on the GPS well before I see HSI CDI diverge. In a partial panel situation it makes it easy to fly partial panel to ATP standards. Admittedly, now that I have G500 in pilot position, much of this data is available there too. But that's my wife's seat and since I fly from the right seat, I am already looking to my left for everything. Closest is actually the GPS's then the digital backup ESI-500 which is like a mini-aspen (it does navigation too) and then the G500.  Here is a picture that better shows it. I don't have charts on the G500 though, even though my subscription covers it, because we can both see it fine on the GTN. 

But I think you expressed it very well. What we actually need and what we like to utilize as personal preferences are two very different things. A lot of what I have is very admittedly far from what is needed. But I love the enjoyment I get from flying with a precision that is easier to maintain with the help of advanced avionics. I am sure my preferences are very biased from a career in tech as an engineer. Once one really knows their avionics well, advanced glass its utterly simple elegance IMO. I teach on all though with Aspen, Avidyne  and Garmin but my panel speaks to what I think is best of breed.  

Incidentally, a Mooney I acquired years ago had a GPS on the far right. I had them move it to the center stack because its just was not very useful there IMO. Years ago, I also had MX20 installed. Due to poor communication it got installed on the far right too - again useless from the pilot seat. So I had the AP moved to the far right to allow the MX20 to sit above the 2 GNS430s in the center stack. That was nirvana in the day!

 

Thanks for bringing the new terrain database to my attention!  I just looked and for some reason, I’m still only seeing 15T1 in my Jepessen app as being the newest available (for my EFB... it’s a free update).  Strange.. I’ll look into it for sure.

your panel is beautiful... not only do you have the best all around type of Mooney (M20K Encore conversion) out there IMO... but also probably the most complete panel!  
 

your explanation makes total sense as to why you’d want the georeferenced plates on your 750.... if I was spending time in the right seat for another pilot flying ifr in IMC... I’d want that too!

[carusoam]

Begrudging...

 

Unusual...

Hard to relate or understand some days...

 

And imperfect on other days...

 

1) for one low price my Idevices all use the same subscription of WingX...  the same gov data, in a different format... uses available waas technology...

2) for a few dollars more I get the blue dot on my IAPs....  Showing exactly where I am with touch screen convenience......

3) For many dollars, I get one subscription for one device, for awesome WAAS accuracy... yet, our planes may have several GPSi  (I = plural)

4) Often the GPSi are all manufactured by the same manufacturer...

5) There are MSers... that have enough dough, that this isn’t an issue...  Yay for them, great people to learn from...

6) There are MSers... that have enough cognitive capacity to remember which database is current, and which are not...  Yay for them, everybody gets a different level of cog capacity, that is hard to improve, and can easily fade...

7) There are enough MSers... who’s cognitive speed is so high, they can do trouble shooting of data base errors on the fly...

8) There are enough MSers who’s currency is the best... using an expensive database spread out over 250 flying days every year... the updates cost a few dollars per day...  tiny compared to the fuel costs...

9) Something has changed in the last decade... there isn’t much discussion of how to update individual approaches in a database by hand...

10) One thing hasn’t changed... of the two guys that started Garmin, one is still running the company... since inception..

11) Oddly, Garmin has only recently passed the all time stock price set back in 2007... leading up to the Great Recession...

12) for some reason, even big G has difficulty delivering all the databases without errors...

 

It can be tough to afford, or pay, for such fantastic big G devices...

The good news... The more you fly, the less it costs per hour....  

It is important to know what works for YOU... Stay current in skills, AND databases...

PP thoughts only...I have more BK devices than big G devices...

Best regards,

-a-

[Flash]

This has been an interesting thread for me to read. I have flown 3000 hours (and 400 instrument approaches) in an M20J with a KLN90B (formerly, Don Kaye's favorite GPS, IIRC, but that was in the dark ages before he went full Garmin), a KFC150, a KCS55a, dual glideslopes, an ADF, a DME, and a basic engine monitor. I finally gave in and did an upgrade to satisfy ADSB requirements; I got an L3.

I've got an iPad running WIngX with georeferenced plates. That gives me a color moving map and terrain, and I've got a backup iPad for redundancy.

In all those hours I have never not been able to get into an airport that I would have been able to get into if I had a WAAS GPS, although I did get into Reid-Hillview once by shooting the ILS at San Jose to get me below the non-WAAS minima. And I haven't felt like I was cheating death flying IFR with a vacuum-driven AI (with standby vacuum pump), although as cheap as the backup AIs are, I agree it's a good idea to get one.

I do expect I'll be getting a GI275 (or two) so I'll have something that talks to the KFC150 and gives me a glass AI. I do expect I'll be getting a WAAS GPS Nav/Comm, if only because I need to upgrade to 8.33 kHz spacing to go where I hope to go in the next few years. But I wish I was as excited about it as some of you guys are about your panels. I'm not looking to sell my plane, so I don't care what the avionics do to its value. For me, it's always been about the flying, and none of the avionics I can get will increase the plane's range or airspeed or climb rate (setting aside the minor effect from a potential decrease in weight). Please don't misread this post; if your panel makes you happy, that's great.

There may be good reasons why the original poster on this thread should buy a bunch of expensive stuff and pay someone a lot of money to install that stuff. That's up to him. I don't think he needs to be in a hurry to do it (other than the potential savings in time and money from doing the installation all at once rather than incrementally). And I don't think he's likely to fall out of the sky doing IFR training (which is overwhelmingly in VMC) with a single AI.

Re-reading this post, I realize I may come across as a Luddite. So be it. As carusoam says, pp thoughts only. YMMV.