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Command Bars


stancrader

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So... tell me.... 

I have never flown with command bars...

The KAP150 doesn’t have the FD...

Is this a useful tool? Or is it a bit of excess..?

Something I am going to have to learn about before ever going to replace my panel... :)

Just wondering...

...and Welcome aboard Stan!

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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Very useful Anthony if your having trouble being accurate for whatever reason they keep you straight and narrow. On my recent IPC even though I was current I felt rusty so I relied heavily on the c bars, especially on hand flown approachs

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Just now, Danb said:

Very useful Anthony if your having trouble being accurate for whatever reason they keep you straight and narrow. On my recent IPC even though I was current I felt rusty so I relied heavily on the c bars, especially on hand flown approachs

Dan,

  Was that in the Bravo?.. G1000 with the S-tec doesn't have FD command bars.  It only has full AP w/command bars. 

 

so, GFC700 yes, you can push FD (or re-engage with just FD, I have never flow one)  and go down to just bars.. Stec-55x, no you can't. 

"Technically there is no reason that Mooney could not have provided a OFF/FD/AP switch"  but that isn't what they certified. 

What I haven't checked is if holding CWS will keep the bars in play, or if they go neutral... something to verify on the next flight. 

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Paul maybe there not command bars there called something else, I’m referring to the bars near the c bars, like when in a say 360 turn you put the bar on the artificial horizon to keep you straight and level. I’m referring to the yellow upside down v shaped bar

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Do you mean the SVT Flight path marker.. or green meatball? you put the ball on the runway, or horizon and you will end up there. 

That is not related to the autopilot system. 

If you are talking about the yellow bars to the side, that is just the normal "level" AI bars. 

the yellow V is always there.. the Purple bars are the command bars and are only in AP/FD mode. 

image.png.ec45c2dd0e47bc67447c1a4d8c8c5d33.png

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24 minutes ago, PaulM said:

Do you mean the SVT Flight path marker.. or green meatball? you put the ball on the runway, or horizon and you will end up there. 

That is not related to the autopilot system. 

If you are talking about the yellow bars to the side, that is just the normal "level" AI bars. 

the yellow V is always there.. the Purple bars are the command bars and are only in AP/FD mode. 

image.png.ec45c2dd0e47bc67447c1a4d8c8c5d33.png

Yes I do the yellow v

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The yellow V is just the standard AI center indicator.    It only gives you a reference to the artificial horizon.   It does not tell you to fly left or right, up or down on an approach. 

The command bars are where you couple the autopilot in FD mode and if you put the yellow V into the purple command V then you will be flying the plane as if the AP was connected.     If in APR mode, then it will tell you to turn left.. go down etc. 

For example these command bars are telling you that you should be pitching up to climb.. 

 

image.png.cd68cbb62ef57a3c8f27987d313dc559.png

It is used where you want to be in manual control, but have the extra backup of what would "Otto" do.   Jet pilots use them for takeoff, and go arounds.. hit the TOGA button etc. 

for us, there isn't much use other than perhaps turbulence where you would want to hand fly and not just let the AP do its job. 

With our G1000 Stec system, we don't have the FD option... when you engage the AP, the purple command bars will appear and the AP takes over... you can watch and as the AP maneuvers the bars will float around as the system commands climbs, turns, etc. 

 

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The command bars are just a visual display of the commands computed by the autopilot that feed the servos when the autopilot is engaged. With the flight director on, but the autopilot not engaged, keeping the airplane symbol nestled tightly in the command bars means you are flying exactly as the autopilot would.

Skip

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2 hours ago, PT20J said:

The command bars are just a visual display of the commands computed by the autopilot that feed the servos when the autopilot is engaged. With the flight director on, but the autopilot not engaged, keeping the airplane symbol nestled tightly in the command bars means you are flying exactly as the autopilot would.

Skip

Which is helpful in turbulence and when you want to make sure the plane is doing what the autopilot wants to do in a reliable and responsive manner.  Hand flying is faster, more decisive and more reliable than complete autopilot control when it is clear what should be done.

John Breda

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@carusoam the biggest help i see in using the command bars is when flying an instrument approach as the command bars are a (leading indicator) compared to the localizer a (lagging indicator). Best analogy i can describe is when you are doing 45 degree steep turns, your VVI leads your altimeter while you are in the turn. I. E. You will see when you are starting to climb or descend sooner using the VVI than just looking at your Altimeter. Some pilots are too eager to correct on the command bars and can get into PIO (pilot induced oscillations) especially close to the runway where needle sensitivity is higher. 

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If I recall the KAP 150 does not have command bars. But yes, they are useful, and not required, but do make a difference. Just like a standard six pack makes a difference vs a shotgun panel. My Missile has a good six pack setup. My former F was more of a shotgun. I earned my IFR in the F so it was the scan I developed. Now that I jump between G1000 aircraft and my Mooney with the six pack I'm fine, but ot jump back to something non standard for IFR, I'd likely be a bit rusty on the scan for the first portion of the flight. 

A six pack is not necessary, but makes things easier. Similar to command bars.

-Seth

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I've always heard of the command bars referred to as a "flight director" or FD.  The KFC autopilots from BK have a flight director, the KAP ones don't, AFAIK.  On the KFC autopilots, there is a FD option that allows you to turn on the flight director but not engage the autopilot. 

I think their usefulness is a preference thing, but very occasionally you'll run into a precision approach that has lower minimums if you use use a flight director.

Edited by jaylw314
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45 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I think their usefulness is a preference thing, but very occasionally you'll run into a precision approach that has lower minimums if you use use a flight director.

KABE near me has "RVR 1800 authorized with use of FD or AP or HUD to DA"  

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13 hours ago, carusoam said:

Thank you gents for the Command Bar details...

Best regards,

-a-

Now if you want your brain blown, let's introduce you to a double (dual) cue flight director!

duocuepfd.jpg.7374dd93a1f1f2f596d94c0c3d05d763.jpg

On my Aspen system, I have the single cue flight director. The standard installation is to have it integrated with the autopilot and in my case, could only be seen when the AP was engaged. I had it wired by the avionics shop to be used with the autopilot turned off. As others mentioned above, using the flight director makes it a lot easier to fly missed approaches.

 

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Hi Stan, 

Welcome to MS and congrats to the very nice airplane (now we understand why its not offered on Controller anymore ;-).
Your N924AL has SN 29-0426, a very close sibling of my N913KS with SN29-0423 (and thus it should also have the S-Tec 55X installed).

Matthias

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1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Great minds do think alike! I never liked the dual cue...

This is a debate that will outlast flight directors!  Personally, I've gone back and forth and, frankly, it has a lot to do with the manufacturer because not all displays are equal.

Way back when this choice first came to the fore, a major airline did a careful study of simulator sessions using the displays and after a lot of number crunching decided to go with the dual cue as the "fleet standard" because, dual cue crews did more precise flying.  That was then, but today many (most?) EFI setups, one can  choose whichever he likes best.  I'm not sure there is a measurable difference these days.

One aspect of the dual cue often overlooked is that pitch and roll information is presented separately.  One can use one, or the other without, necessarily following both...not so with the single cue.

Mark me down as "no preference".

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I guess the Mooney installed version is different than the STC'd version.  When I had an STEC-55X in my M20J it had a switch for AP/FD/OFF and I could flip the switch from AP to FD to disengage the autopilot but keep the flight director bars.  Seems the 55X has the capability, maybe you just need a switch.

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