geoffb Posted January 19, 2021 Report Posted January 19, 2021 You're infinitely better equipped now that I have been for the last 17 years. Do your training, get your rating, fly in the system. Adding shiny boxes that start depreciating the second the avionics shop screws up the install does nothing for your flying or the resale of your total investment. Upgrading to a 430W would be inexpensive if you can do the work yourself (with appropriate oversight). If you're intent on spending money, put in a G5 HSI. That will provide an improvement in situational awareness and reduction in scan workload that you'll notice immediately. For me, altitude hold would be second. And don't ditch the KX-170 casually. It's a great radio, can still be serviced by lots of people. Buy a good spare for $750 to keep on the shelf. As long as you're easy on the tuning gears, it may continue to provide many more years of service. Then fly. Fly more. Avgas is the best investment in your flying. 1 Quote
dominikos Posted January 19, 2021 Author Report Posted January 19, 2021 I should also mention that I have Century IIB (wing level & heading only). I can drive it from HSI but not GPS. But it does come handy - flight paths are darn straight on flight tracker. Quote
ArtVandelay Posted January 19, 2021 Report Posted January 19, 2021 Adding shiny boxes that start depreciating the second the avionics shop screws up the install does nothing for your flying or the resale of your total investment.You’re joking, right? You think a plane with 20-50 year old equipment will sell for the same as one with modern avionics. You won’t get the money you spent but it will sell for much more. And it should help with your situation awareness at the very least. Quote
Immelman Posted January 19, 2021 Report Posted January 19, 2021 (edited) Wants vs needs. How much utility do you need? If you can fly direct fix /G and shoot an ILS you are more than well enough equipped for training. If your home field, or a frequent destination, has low IFR frequently and an approach where WAAS gets you in, but no ILS or other suitable approach with low minimums, then there utility. Will you be flying in conditions like that often? Wants vs needs. What would that money do invested? How much is each approach worth??? Get your training done, get some real IFR flying, in see how much you'll really do, and then decide. How about this equation: Panel upgrade cost / # of approaches flown with new equipment that you could not do with your existing equipment / year. Is it $100 per approach? $1000? $10,000? I am going to take a wild ass guess that it is somewhere north of $1000 per approach. You can decide if its worth it to you. And I think the optimal sequence would probably be avionics, interior, paint. Avionics will require removing interior. Avionics may require antenna replacement. Edited January 19, 2021 by Immelman 2 Quote
Vance Harral Posted January 19, 2021 Report Posted January 19, 2021 2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: Here's what I'd do. Put in a pair of Gi275's Sound recommendation. That said, if you're on a budget, a pair of G5s is a considerably cheaper option that achieves most of the same functionality. The hardware and installation costs for GI-275s are not just slightly higher than the prior-generation G5, they are dramatically higher. I have no quarrel with people who think the touchscreen interface, higher resolution, and additional functionality of the GI-275 is worth it (particularly when it comes to autopilot integration). But a pair of G5s is a really sound ADI/HSI solution for considerably less money. If you keep your eye out, you just might find a pair of pre-owned G5s in good shape, say from someone upgrading to the GI-275. 2 Quote
geoffb Posted January 19, 2021 Report Posted January 19, 2021 56 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: You’re joking, right? You think a plane with 20-50 year old equipment will sell for the same as one with modern avionics. You won’t get the money you spent but it will sell for much more. And it should help with your situation awareness at the very least. I'll quote myself "total investment" Hope that's more clear. Quote
donkaye Posted January 19, 2021 Report Posted January 19, 2021 What price do you put on YOUR life? How good is your mental picture of your situational awareness with no moving map? When I got my instrument rating with a pair of VORs and an ADF, the mental picture was pretty sparse. As an example, you may remember when ATC screwed up and vectored an American Flyers airplane into a mountain in LA nearly 30 years ago (they forgot about the plane). With the minimal equipment the 172 had at the time, even though as an instrument pilot your'e supposed to always maintain situational awareness, a couple of VOR needles really wasn't much of a help. Today, something like that should never happen. With a moving map with terrain enabled, the pilot could have alerted ATC that they were headed into a mountain. There's never too much avionics in the cockpit. Every piece helps in establishing your situational awareness. If you have multiple backups to multiple items all the better. And flip flop radios are better and reduce pilot workload. Yes, the KX 170B was a good radio--30 years ago. Today there is much better. Remember, the more you can get done in a given amount of time when IMC the better. Flip flop radios, especially two of them assist to that end. And, yes, you should practice "dive and drive" LNAV approaches requiring multiple power and altitude changes to assist a student in being able to do more in a given amount of time, but the era of dive and drive approaches in real life is nearly gone with the advent of WAAS receivers. So, in my opinion, a new instrument student should have everything in his/her bag of tricks that they can afford to keep both themselves and their future passengers as safe as possible. That means spending what it takes. In this day and age that means at least 2 electronic attitude indicators, 1 flip flop radio (two are much better, though), and a WAAS GPS with VOR/ILS Nav capability. Also, an iPad for both backup and easy briefing and filing. 4 3 Quote
geoffb Posted January 19, 2021 Report Posted January 19, 2021 3 hours ago, dominikos said: I should also mention that I have Century IIB (wing level & heading only). I can drive it from HSI but not GPS. But it does come handy - flight paths are darn straight on flight tracker. The IIB is capable of NAV tracking if I recall correctly. Add a GDC31 and you have GPSS also. Add STEC alt hold and you've really got it all. Quote
dominikos Posted January 19, 2021 Author Report Posted January 19, 2021 41 minutes ago, geoffb said: The IIB is capable of NAV tracking if I recall correctly. Add a GDC31 and you have GPSS also. Add STEC alt hold and you've really got it all. For some reason mine only tracks HSI bug but not GPS. Not sure if that’s fixable given its age. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 Two important points... 1. You want someone to be safer? How about supporting them getting their Instrument rating no matter their equipment? That rating and the improvement in your skill is about the best possible investment a pilot can make. Sure, should we fly solid IMC to mins all the time with minimal equipment? No. We can certainly spend opm and suggest great panels for people with all kinds of instrument missions, but regardless of their equipment, instrument training is a great idea. 2. If we make our own “rules” about what is safe or not safe in general aviation and these “rules” exclude 90% of the current fleet and exceed the budget of 90% of the pilot population, we are only hastening the demise of GA. I do not want to watch GA turn (further) into something only “rich” people can afford to do. There are certainly nice things people can spend their money on to improve their airplanes, but let’s make sure we know the budget, mission, and personal goals before we tell them what they “must” have. 5 1 Quote
MikeOH Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 8 hours ago, Vance Harral said: I'm still flying with a mechanical AI and DG, I think that puts me in the grave. I'm in the same graveyard with ya 1 Quote
MikeOH Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 10 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: Two important points... 1. You want someone to be safer? How about supporting them getting their Instrument rating no matter their equipment? That rating and the improvement in your skill is about the best possible investment a pilot can make. Sure, should we fly solid IMC to mins all the time with minimal equipment? No. We can certainly spend opm and suggest great panels for people with all kinds of instrument missions, but regardless of their equipment, instrument training is a great idea. 2. If we make our own “rules” about what is safe or not safe in general aviation and these “rules” exclude 90% of the current fleet and exceed the budget of 90% of the pilot population, we are only hastening the demise of GA. I do not want to watch GA turn (further) into something only “rich” people can afford to do. There are certainly nice things people can spend their money on to improve their airplanes, but let’s make sure we know the budget, mission, and personal goals before we tell them what they “must” have. Excellent post! Much more polite than what I was about to write. 1 1 Quote
donkaye Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 21 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: You want someone to be safer? How about supporting them getting their Instrument rating no matter their equipment? I think getting your instrument rating if very important. When I teach the rating I like to have my students get at least 4 hours of actual. The amount of money to purchase even a mechanical backup like a Castleberry like I had for many years is small in comparison to the risk involved in flying the old partial panel if your main AI fails. I've read about too many partial panel accidents over the years. I feel strongly enough about having a second AI, that if someone doesn't want or have the money to purchase one, then I think they should, for safety reasons, remain a VFR pilot. If you disagree with me, then you are willing to take more risks with you and your family than I'm willing to take. Quote
toto Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 31 minutes ago, donkaye said: The amount of money to purchase even a mechanical backup like a Castleberry Dynon has a pretty low entry point with their PocketPanel product. An AHRS that you can install yourself, with a built-in battery backup for about $900. (These are often available cheaper from retailers.) https://www.dynonavionics.com/pocket-panel.php 2 Quote
carusoam Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) Dominik, we have covered plenty of ground... 1) You have a very capable panel already... 2) Waas will add another skill to the panel... 3) Your ILS already supplies precision approach capability... a method of getting the plane close to the ground while getting out of IMC. 4) training, understanding, and knowledge are your best defense... 5) Your AP is supplied by some nav radio(?)... you want to know which radio that is... the HSI is in the middle of the two... 6) You can add different resources to feed the HSI and AP with a fancy switch... 7) Your G430 probably has the fancy switch internally, all you need know is the knowledge to enable it... VOR, ILS, GPS... three separate receivers in that one box... 8) It will really be helpful to know what you have, and what it is connected to... and how to get what you want from it... 9) Know that the HSI is a fancy display... it receives nav signals from any nav radio you properly connect to it... 10) Nav1 is usually connected to the HSI... the moment you get multiple nav boxes... this is when a fancy switch becomes desirable... something like a 10pole, single throw type switch... 11) Budget is always important to discuss... Some people still have kids, are paying off a house, might need a car, college bills are piled high, and their spouse only has two jobs, not a third one to support our habits... So... when the plane budget is limited by all these variables... it can be described briefly as needing a CB solution... As in I need a CB solution for this challenge... CB = Cheap B... Some parts of life can easily afford a 75amu panel upgrade... Some parts of life are much tougher... like young family tough... Some people’s priorities make a 75amu panel upgrade much easier to live with... both spouses/partners enjoy flying... Some people’s next steps in life make a 75amu panel much easier to choose... You are using this as a training device for a career that depends on it... Maybe you just have a ton o dough, and nobody needs to know why... 12) Second AIs are very common back up instruments... no reason to not have one... too many good people have fallen out of IMC with a broken vac pump... panel mounted, always operating... there won’t be enough time to assemble one or turn it on... 13) Use caution discussing dough in public... code it in AMUs. Be respectful of others... Summary of what I think I read in this thread... Best regards, -a- Edited January 20, 2021 by carusoam 3 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 56 minutes ago, donkaye said: I think getting your instrument rating if very important. When I teach the rating I like to have my students get at least 4 hours of actual. The amount of money to purchase even a mechanical backup like a Castleberry like I had for many years is small in comparison to the risk involved in flying the old partial panel if your main AI fails. I've read about too many partial panel accidents over the years. I feel strongly enough about having a second AI, that if someone doesn't want or have the money to purchase one, then I think they should, for safety reasons, remain a VFR pilot. If you disagree with me, then you are willing to take more risks with you and your family than I'm willing to take. I think a backup AI is an excellent investment and can be swapped for the TC at a reasonable cost. Even an older electrical/mechanical one accomplishes the goal. It’s the new waas gps/com, multi-screen glass, and integrated ADSB systems that go way over the top of what we “need”. Are they nice? Heck ya! Should we be so exclusive in our little pilot community that we tell people without that kind of gear that they can’t fly IFR safely? Definitely not. 2 Quote
dominikos Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Posted January 20, 2021 So far, the discussion was a big learning for me... The importance of backup AI is something that I didn’t appreciate and helped me to prioritize my thinking... I think redundancy in general I have to confess that it hits close to home for me. My VFR instructor was killed in IMC conditions when flying IFR flight plan. Some of the points brought in the discussion point to what might have happen - failure of the vacuum pump system is a possibility although no official explanation has been published yet. I’m still not clear why I see people having two GPS units in the panel and whether iPad with Sentry can be considered back up AI. It was also interesting to see that conversation focused mostly on Garmin options - don’t still know whether Dynons/Avidyne are missing functionality, are not considered future proof or don’t offer a good return on investment. But I find the conversation very helpful, and agree with your summary of key points/learnings. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, dominikos said: So far, the discussion was a big learning for me... The importance of backup AI is something that I didn’t appreciate and helped me to prioritize my thinking... I think redundancy in general I have to confess that it hits close to home for me. My VFR instructor was killed in IMC conditions when flying IFR flight plan. Some of the points brought in the discussion point to what might have happen - failure of the vacuum pump system is a possibility although no official explanation has been published yet. I’m still not clear why I see people having two GPS units in the panel and whether iPad with Sentry can be considered back up AI. It was also interesting to see that conversation focused mostly on Garmin options - don’t still know whether Dynons/Avidyne are missing functionality, are not considered future proof or don’t offer a good return on investment. But I find the conversation very helpful, and agree with your summary of key points/learnings. Imo, having two gps units is overkill. They are very reliable. If you lose one you’ll have to tell atc anyway (that’s a good thing) and they will help you get where you need to go. You should probably have some type of approach capability on your #2 radio like vor or ils. Realistically, you’ll probably have 3+ GPSs in the cockpit in order to navigate (ipads, phones, stratus, etc.). None of it legal, but it’ll get you home. Still want a backup approach though. I personally wouldn’t have counted my stratus as a backup AI. I did have it set up before I went with dual G5s and it could be used like that. It’s good situational awareness, but to me it’s a bit flakey once in a while. Maybe it was my older iPads fault? I now have my gtx345 as an ahrs ipad source but I would be in bad shape if I was down to that. I have read stories where people recovered on the stratus/ipad after Vac failure. I’d like something dedicated like the dynon pocketpanel or a certified rc allen electronic AI, etc. The avidyne solutions are just fine. Some like them better. They do everything Garmin does... however, if you’re eventually going to put in other Garmin equipment like transponders, g3x, g5s, gi275s, gfc500, etc then it’s best to stick with Garmin because it integrates better. Edited January 20, 2021 by Ragsf15e 1 Quote
carusoam Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) Dynon / Avidyne / Aspen / PSEngineering / EI /JPI... Left out of the discussion will be BK... All of the players in the market are very capable... As individual boxes, they can be even better than Big G’s offering... No one particular solution is the best! Integration of all the boxes requires a lot of work... extra understanding... it helps to be an electrical engineer, mechanic or built radio projects earlier in life... If you have never integrated a home theater project at home, or at a fraternity... you haven’t scratched the surface of integrating avionics... For the best, yet imperfect integration of avionics... stay with one supplier... Following this guidance, lead many to Garmin... Bendix-King was once the integrated IP supplier of choice... the two founders of Garmin met while working for BK... Falling out of IMC... is an aviation sin... If all it takes is mounting a second AI, clipped into the panel... for 1amu... do it... What doesn’t get taught directly... the TC is a terrible back up instrument... It wears slowly... As it wears, it becomes jumpy in turbulence... Jumpy TCs are near impossible to follow... TCs are tough to follow on their own... So... if you’re TC is original to the plane... try to follow it in VMC when it gets bumpy out... Be thinking long term... 1) Two ways to get to the ground in IMC... in case one gets unplugged... ILS WAAS 2) Two displays in case one breaks... HSI ILS display for a capable Nav2 3) Two ways to keep the clean side up... AI 1 AI 2 proven TC, with plenty of training/practice... (has been a proven killer for some, V-tail around NY) 4) Portable devices and ipads can be very powerful... they can also be very disappointing... To rely on something, it has to be tested... test it once use it forever... Every time you disconnect, or turn off a portable device, or have it fall out of its holster... or have it move in flight... it may not be telling you the whole truth any longer... There won’t be enough time to get a second iPad out and operating once in IMC while operating partial panel... I use my iPads until they fail... yes they fail. And Apple doesn’t care... they will gladly sell you another newer version if you survive the landing... iPads and iPhones are great nav tools... Just not good enough to be plan B long term... Flying in IMC is as serious as it gets... Your life depends on you and your equipment... Not just one or the other... This conversation is going much better than the ones I sat through in primary flight training... Where young CFIs claimed that a stall spin in IMC would be a good idea... recover when reaching IMC, and fly home... That wouldn’t work in a Mooney on the east coast... Keep learning, keep reading, keep asking questions... Keep making dough... My first hurdle to getting my IR... was a simple magnetized tube frame in an M20C... doing turns using a compass was impossible as the compass would lock up, then accelerate to catch up... the CFII couldn’t get to the next lesson... Expect something similar to crop up as you progress through the various lessons... If you end up with the wrong CFII... don’t be afraid to find another... My IR training sat dormant until MS became a reality... Go MS! Best regards, -a- Edited January 20, 2021 by carusoam 1 Quote
carusoam Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) Did we cover engine monitors..? They are low cost on the used market... their installation can be expensive... Got a good relationship with your mechanic? Another one of those conversations about integrating a stereo at home... You want one, because it is a great device to know what just happened to your engine... With one scan, you know all cylinders a performing as expected... or one is not... They can easily save you a ton of dough... Best regards, -a- Edited January 20, 2021 by carusoam 2 Quote
cbarry Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 To the OP: You’re already on track to get your first major upgrade—an instrument rating—congratulations! As far as your panel goes, it’s very similar to the M20F that I earned my IR in. It’s basic but functional. IMO, nailing the IFR basics (airspeeds, power settings, headings, altitudes...) are fundamental to being a proficient IFR pilot. All of the IFR basics can be usually be learned in VMC for all practical purposes. What I would try not to do is have a huge break in your IFR training due to a major panel upgrade. Safety is paramount so, the first panel upgrade I’d consider is a backup AI in the form up a G5 HSI. IMO, this for a reasonable price, will enhance your panel from a standard DG to an HSI and provide a backup AI in the event your vacuum or mechanical AI go TU. Next, I would consider upgrading to waas. This reduces the “dive and drive” gps approaches and transforms the approach into a more stable and less workload environment (of course where available). Whether you go with the Garmin units or the Avidyne IFD440/540 route, most likely you’ll need new coax and antenna/s. I’ve flown behind both and they both have their advantages and disadvantages. I do believe the G5s will still interface with the IFDs and of course the Garmin units. Third, I’d consider a modern autopilot such as the GFC500. Single pilot IFR in IMC can become slightly busy and a reliable backup pilot (autopilot) sure can help in that environment. If I’m not mistaken, you could go with either Garmin gps/nav/coms or Avidyne IFDs and install the GFC500 as long as you have the G5s. Lastly, but not least important, would be an engine monitor. If your panel advances from here to more of an all glass panel (G3X v Dynon...) you’ll be somewhat brand restricted for interface purposes—at least currently. These pointers are just from normal non-bold safety conscience instrument rated pilot who’s not an instructor nor avionics specialist. 1 Quote
dominikos Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Posted January 20, 2021 6 hours ago, carusoam said: Did we cover engine monitors..? They are low cost on the used market... their installation can be expensive... Got a good relationship with your mechanic? Another one of those conversations about integrating a stereo at home... You want one, because it is a great device to know what just happened to your engine... With one scan, you know all cylinders a performing as expected... or one is not... They can easily save you a ton of dough... Best regards, -a- No, we haven’t. But taking a note of this. And I will definitely have to make friends with mechanic on the field. I think I can some basic work myself, but will need somebody to look over my shoulder. Fortunately their shop is a quick golf cart ride from my hangar. 1 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 12 hours ago, dominikos said: So far, the discussion was a big learning for me... The importance of backup AI is something that I didn’t appreciate and helped me to prioritize my thinking... I think redundancy in general I have to confess that it hits close to home for me. My VFR instructor was killed in IMC conditions when flying IFR flight plan. Some of the points brought in the discussion point to what might have happen - failure of the vacuum pump system is a possibility although no official explanation has been published yet. I’m still not clear why I see people having two GPS units in the panel and whether iPad with Sentry can be considered back up AI. It was also interesting to see that conversation focused mostly on Garmin options - don’t still know whether Dynons/Avidyne are missing functionality, are not considered future proof or don’t offer a good return on investment. But I find the conversation very helpful, and agree with your summary of key points/learnings. Your iPad makes a great secondary GPS unit. I once flew into Denver, around the north end of the big mountains, at night, with an electrical system failure. I shut down everything I could in the panel to preserve power for my radio, lights, and gear. I confidently navigated around various mountain peaks using my iPad running ForeFlight. I'm very confident in my iPad and in worst case scenario, my iPhone to provide GPS navigation. Of course it's not connected to my autopilot, but hand flying off the magenta line on the iPad is easy. What's NOT easy, is using the AI depiction on the iPad to keep the wings level in IMC. While it can be done, sometimes, it's VERY difficult. I would probably prefer to fly partial panel, then try to use the iPad as my AI. I have a very nice, well equipped, panel in my 252. It has just one GPS. (I have an Avidyne IFD540 and prefer it over the Garmin without question). But I have two Attitude Indicators and wouldn't fly IFR without both. 2 Quote
Lance Link Posted January 21, 2021 Report Posted January 21, 2021 I am curious why most recommendations mention 2 GI 275s as opposed to one 7" G3X, for example in Don Kaye's Lincoln and Honda packages. I'd think the G3X would be bigger, easier to see, and if I am not mistaken can provide terrain. I don't think one of these is much more expensive than 2 GI 275s, if at all. Are the 275s a lot better for some reason? And why no mention of a simple GPS 175 (or a GNX 375 or GNC 355 depending on other instruments that are available) with the current 430 as a back-up, instead of a GTN 650Xi? Might that be an economical solution, and suitable for the OP's intended use? A GTN 750Xi and a GTN 650Xi is one heapin' big lotta' dough. Would those two admittedly better units really be worth the money? And as a radical notion, how about an Aera 760 mounted somewhere using ship's power, for a bigger map, charts, and plates, for less than 2 AMUs? I am considering a similar type of upgrade (with a GFC 500), and am leaning toward the single G3X, so this is a question of particular interest. 1 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 21, 2021 Report Posted January 21, 2021 GI 275's will fit in the existing panel. A G3X will require cutting a new panel. Quote
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