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Dual GI-275’s and KFC 150 autopilot interaction: GPSS vs NAV mode demo, difference in tracking performance, bottonology, and best ways to use GPSS.


Fly_M20R

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My Lord, all of those button pushes to switch back and forth between GPSS and Heading mode? I counted six steps while I have a single switch on the panel.

Let me add to the mix that in my three hours of using the -275, it's very difficult to press the tiny buttons in even slightly rough air.

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45 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

My Lord, all of those button pushes to switch back and forth between GPSS and Heading mode? I counted six steps while I have a single switch on the panel.

Let me add to the mix that in my three hours of using the -275, it's very difficult to press the tiny buttons in even slightly rough air.

Definitely a lot of buttonology! Garmin has had many requests to move the GPSS/HDG toggle higher in the menu tree or on the screen. They are looking at it. I have flown with the 275’s installed for 3 months and can pick the fields to change on the screen (ALT, HDG, CRS, baro pressure, HDG, etc) with my finger without much difficulty in turbulence, even mod-severe. If I have to go to a menu item I will use the rotating knobs: long press small one to open up the menu and then use large to change fields and small to select or change values. If there were a bezel on which to rest some fingers and stabilize the hand it would be easier. I rest non-use finger(s) on the panel itself right outside the instrument. Those are the drawbacks of a small screen instrument. :mellow:  However they have a superbly bright display with great resolution and tons of functionality!! 10 lbs of s#%&@ packed in a 5 lb bag! :lol: 

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1 minute ago, Fly_M20R said:

Definitely a lot of buttonology! Garmin has had many requests to move the GPSS/HDG toggle higher in the menu tree or on the screen. They are looking at it. I have flown with the 275’s installed for 3 months and can pick the fields to change on the screen (ALT, HDG, CRS, baro pressure, HDG, etc) with my finger without much difficulty in turbulence, even mod-severe. If I have to go to a menu item I will use the rotating knobs: long press small one to open up the menu and then use large to change fields and small to select or change values. If there were a bezel on which to rest some fingers and stabilize the hand it would be easier. I rest non-use finger(s) on the panel itself right outside the instrument. Those are the drawbacks of a small screen instrument. :mellow:  However they have a superbly bright display with great resolution and tons of functionality!! 10 lbs of s#%&@ packed in a 5 lb bag! :lol: 

As more units come online hopefully Garmin will listen to user recommendations. One of my first would be to disable the standard pressure (29.92) toggle for the barometric setting if an owner will not be going over 18,000 feet. I've already found myself looking down and noticing it set to that.

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On 1/15/2021 at 11:52 AM, Fly_M20R said:

Definitely a lot of buttonology! Garmin has had many requests to move the GPSS/HDG toggle higher in the menu tree or on the screen. They are looking at it.

This is because nobody in Garmin design or engineering flys airplanes.  At least not in the professional or semi pro ranks.....

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20 hours ago, Aerodon said:

Why are you turning the bug in GPSS mode, i thought the whole point was for the GPS and flight plan to direct it?

 

Aerodon

Very good question! I do it to keep the actual HDG flown aligned with the bug for my own additional 'situational awareness'. In case I want to switch to HDG mode it is already aligned. If I were to add a switch to toggle modes I would already have the process engrained. Anytime I would have to switch headings per ATC I can easily do so as well with CWS. Also will easily maintain current heading in case I have to disable the autopilot.

Even when in NAV or APR mode I will also align the bug as much as I can in case I have to revert to hand flying. 

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14 hours ago, Fritz Kaiser said:

Hello Chris,

i will do the same panel upgrade as you in march'21 in my Mooney

Dual GI275, GTN750Xi, traffic watch from Garrecht.

I've already a GDC31 installed in my O1.

Is it possible to keep the GDC31 , and swtich there between HDG and GPSS?

Thanks

Fritz

No idea. But I might install it if it can be done. 

Do note that the GI275's have excellent lightning protection and Garmin limits connections with some devices because of it. 

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6 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

This is because nobody in Garmin design or engineering flys airplanes.  At least not in the professional or semi pro ranks.....

In spite of that they have great equipment and software algorithms!

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Access to the GPSS functionality seems epically poorly planned.

Surely they will fix this before long.

Its so important though, you would think there would be an optional external toggle button since it is on par with the buttons on the actual autopilot.

I will try it out when I get my plane back from avionics in two weeks - and then I am sure I will send up a complain flag to the Garmin juggernaut.

E

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For such a new system...

It was really cool watching Chris navigate seamlessly through several layers of menus... while flying.

The amount of memory power required to remember how to get to where you want to be.... is amazing...

Add in some time off from using it, or stress due to flight conditions...

This one seems a bit extra complex...

 

With the old equipment... the number of buttons is set.  And they are always on display...  if you see one, and can’t remember what it does... look it up...

What do you do when you don’t remember the button exists, and it is hidden from view...

Lots of procedures ‘to do’ lists...  more how to lists...

Its fun being an ordinary human being...   :)

The GPS and GPSS really add new functionality to the old AP...

Best regards,

-a-

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41 minutes ago, carusoam said:

For such a new system...

It was really cool watching Chris navigate seamlessly through several layers of menus... while flying.

The amount of memory power required to remember how to get to where you want to be.... is amazing...

Add in some time off from using it, or stress due to flight conditions...

This one seems a bit extra complex...

 

With the old equipment... the number of buttons is set.  And they are always on display...  if you see one, and can’t remember what it does... look it up...

What do you do when you don’t remember the button exists, and it is hidden from view...

Lots of procedures ‘to do’ lists...  more how to lists...

Its fun being an ordinary human being...   :)

The GPS and GPSS really add new functionality to the old AP...

Best regards,

-a-

Thank you Carusoam!

It is the old adage of practice makes perfect. I found GPSS very useful and made it a point to go through the menus several times to visualize the procedure and get it into "muscle memory". The 275's have a ton of features and I haven't gone down every rabbit hole as frequently to commit them to memory. Just "know" they are there and find my way down when necessary.:D 

Fortunately one doesn't have to fly or run down the battery to learn the menus since they each have a 1+ hr of internal battery which gives ample time to go sit in the plane and "explore".... True "hangar flying"!!!!  :)  

I would DEFINITELY prefer a higher menu level for this feature or installing an external switch. <_<

Edited by Fly_M20R
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On 1/15/2021 at 10:28 AM, Fly_M20R said:

 

 

I also want to thank you for your series of videos on this.  They are incredibly useful and I will be reviewing them again as I get my own dual GI275 equipped plane back from avionics in two weeks - can't wait!  Thank you!!

Erik

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1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

I also want to thank you for your series of videos on this.  They are incredibly useful and I will be reviewing them again as I get my own dual GI275 equipped plane back from avionics in two weeks - can't wait!  Thank you!!

Erik

Thank you so much Erik!! It is a pleasure doing these and I am slowly getting the video editing technique down so as not to make them too drawn out or boring and still be as informative as possible. I am not a CFI nor have a “gazillion” hours flying. Not even multi-engine rated since I was never interested in a twin or needed it for any “mission”. I would if I had such missions or the $$ to buy a turbo-prop just to have that new learning curve. However, I am an avid flyer and pick as many brains as I can for more knowledge and now looking to pass some of that on. More videos coming....  :)

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9 hours ago, Fly_M20R said:

Thank you so much Erik!! It is a pleasure doing these and I am slowly getting the video editing technique down so as not to make them too drawn out or boring and still be as informative as possible. I am not a CFI nor have a “gazillion” hours flying. Not even multi-engine rated since I was never interested in a twin or needed it for any “mission”. I would if I had such missions or the $$ to buy a turbo-prop just to have that new learning curve. However, I am an avid flyer and pick as many brains as I can for more knowledge and now looking to pass some of that on. More videos coming....  :)

Well you are doing a great job!  It doesn't take a cfi to produce a video pointing out the buttonology and functionality of a device like this, but it is exactly what I need and want and you did a great job.  So thank you!

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13 hours ago, carusoam said:

For such a new system...

It was really cool watching Chris navigate seamlessly through several layers of menus... while flying.

The amount of memory power required to remember how to get to where you want to be.... is amazing...

 

It doesn't take all that much skill to get it down. Although I only have a single 275 installed (ADI), I know all of the menu options already and can easily jump to the one I want.

I will say this though.. as great a product as it is, the documentation sucks. I think the biggest mistake made by Garmin was combining the ADI, HSI and EIS into one pilot manual. It's a mess because the features of the ADI and HSI are all intertwined within the same pages and I don't know which features are available for the unit that I am using because everything is interspersed within the same pages. It would have been wise for them to create separate manuals for each function - or at the very least - separate chapters. I realize that a single unit can incorporate an ADI and HSI and through reversion there may be two units installed using two different features, but that too could be handled sensibly.

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14 minutes ago, wcb said:

So my question is a cost benefit etc comparison between twin GI275's vs  7 inch G500TXi or the 7 inch G3X Touch (not to mention the 10 inch) or the Aspen/Dynon Products?.  Did you consider these options?

Good question wcb.

A 7 inch G500Txi is a really good unit, however, it still needs a GAD 43e to interface fully with a legacy autopilot and then it still needs a backup standby ADI such as a G5. If you add the hardware cost for those three you are already at $17K which was close to my total installation cost - hardware and labor. The G3X is also a superb unit, however it only talks to Garmin autopilots which is why it is less expensive than the G500Txi. My KFC 150 and servos were working fine and didn’t want to spend extra $ for the GFC500.  You also have to take into account the additional cost of cutting a new panel which may be around $2,500 to $3,000 for both G500Txi and G3X.

With dual G5’s you still have to keep part of the six pack and same as with the G3X they don’t talk to legacy autopilots.

The Aspen is much more limited than the GI275’s and also needs an interface to talk well to an autopilot. It is not as robust and if you loose airspeed input due to either ice or other reason the rest of the fields go “red-X” and the unit is unusable. They supposedly fixed this issue with the ProMax. Garmin has superb math in their ADI and will keep on trucking!! Dynon apparently also only talks to their autopilot and not sure about the robustness of the unit if any input fails such as the airspeed. Dynon also requires new panel cut.

Overall, I found the dual 275 the most cost effective with superb features and performance.

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1 minute ago, Fly_M20R said:

Good question wcb.

A 7 inch G500Txi is a really good unit, however, it still needs a GAD 43e to interface fully with a legacy autopilot and then it still needs a backup standby ADI such as a G5. If you add the hardware cost for those three you are already at $17K which was close to my total installation cost - hardware and labor. The G3X is also a superb unit, however it only talks to Garmin autopilots which is why it is less expensive than the G500Txi. My KFC 150 and servos were working fine and didn’t want to spend extra $ for the GFC500.  You also have to take into account the additional cost of cutting a new panel which may be around $2,500 to $3,000 for both G500Txi and G3X.

With dual G5’s you still have to keep part of the six pack and same as with the G3X they don’t talk to legacy autopilots.

The Aspen is much more limited than the GI275’s and also needs an interface to talk well to an autopilot. It is not as robust and if you loose airspeed input due to either ice or other reason the rest of the fields go “red-X” and the unit is unusable. They supposedly fixed this issue with the ProMax. Garmin has superb math in their ADI and will keep on trucking!! Dynon apparently also only talks to their autopilot and not sure about the robustness of the unit if any input fails such as the airspeed. Dynon also requires new panel cut.

Overall, I found the dual 275 the most cost effective with superb features and performance.

I should have mentioned I just upgrade birds to 94 Ovation with the KAP 150

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