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Help me plan for IFR Upgrades


Nukemzzz

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So 34X is flying and my PPL training has resumed.  The squawk list is getting shorter and shorter.  Later this year I'll replace the main donuts, might rebuild the trim jack screw...all good stuff to keep the bird healthy.  However, I plan on going IFR pretty fast after I get my VFR PPL. There is so much to learn about this topic and the avionics options.  I'm not someone that just drops my plane off somewhere and just does what a shop recommends.  I like to be an educated consumer, especially since this upgrade is going to cost as much as nice used car, and I'll probably be heavily involved with the procurement of the stuff and installation.  I think I'm also going to have to help figure out what the Brittain system needs and my local avionics folks don't seem to know much about it.

Hoping to pick the brains of some of the experts here to think through my options to help me arrive at the best plan so I can start daydreaming and preparing.  

When I purchased the plane it was previously being used for IFR, however, it is no longer capable for several reasons:  the DME was stolen before I bought the plane and whoever installed the marker beacon equipment had no business wiring a go-cart...not to mention an airplane and I ended up taking out, and terminating, a lot of the wires that seemed to be connected to the marker beacon box behind the panel...trust me, it was a mess of "not safe" stuff.  

What I have now you can see in the picture and I'll list some more details here (remember I don't know much about IFR requirements and terms, so this is why I need help to prepare):

  • Brittain Accutrak is working, but wonders a bit, haven't messed with it too much since fixing the servos.  Altitude hold seems to be in-op.  I'm not sure if I'll be able to fix it.  Someday, long in the future I may move to something like TruTrac...but I doubt it.
  • Narco Audio panel with marker beacon lights and button...old...old.. radio bits work, don't know if the beacon and approach parts work.
  • Narco Com 1
  • KX-155 Com 2
  • VOR with Glide Slope.  It's connected to the KX-155 ...strange its on the top I know.  (Connected to Brittain Accutrack)
  • HSI (Narco I think), not a very nice unit, not slaved for heading, electric at least so a decent backup, but old, big and heavy.    (I think it is also connected to Brittain Accutrack)
  • Stratus ESG 3i transponder with AHRS for backup
  • Old vacuum Artificial horizon and DG
  • New vertical card compass (not show in the picture), cabin needs demag to improve deviation card.

My mission is to travel with family pretty long distance and my IFR need is to give us more safe flying days.  I want to be able to punch through clouds on departure mainly.  I'm not looking to fly in the soup for long or even run challenging IFR approaches unless its an emergency.

Looking to do this for under $15k.  What I "think" I should do:

  1. Pull the Narco radio and insert a GPS/COM unit.  One big question here is which?
    1. I've left room for a large GPS in the center stack but I'm not sure if it's worth the additional money since I'm going to be a heavy Foreflight user.  I just need the GPS to drive the autopilot and approaches...I think.  
    2. 430 WAAS? Will it allow me to run all GPS approaches?  Seems to be the cheapest options, what do I loose vs a 640 or newer Avidyne unit (IFD 540?)?
  2. Pull the vacuum AI and old HSI and insert a G5 or the new UAvionics unit.  Not sure why one would be better than the other.  Keep the vacuum DG... I need vacuum for accutrak anyway.  I don't want to rely on vacuum AI...however, I do have the stratus AHRS unit for backup.  
  3. Connect the GPS to the the Accutrak.  This is important to me, I'm hoping that by some miracle I can use this system still to reduce workload at least during stable cruise and I'm hoping it will track GPS better than VOR and VOR headings are becoming too rare to be very useful for the autopilot.  I think I can send the GPS signal to the VOR instrument so I can see my course and glideslope without looking at the GPS screen and it outputs what the Accutrak needs, but I'm not sure.  Maybe the GPS can connect direct to the Accutrak.
  4. I don't think I need VOR approach and marker beacon capability.  Again, my IFR knowledge is weak at this point.  I'm gathering that GPS gets me pretty much anywhere these days.  So I'm not sure that it's worth fixing any of the old IFR approach stuff.
  5. I have a decent setup for intercom and the audio panel works.  I've not seen a good reason to upgrade it even though its probably older than me.  lol

 

So what do you think?  Help me spend some money later this year!

Panel before new compass.jpg

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The 430 is a good unit and they are available for a lot less.  Down side is they are older and all will be used.  So no real knowledge on humidity where the plane lived, how many hard landings (daily with student pilots, etc.). 

OR...  Consider the GNC-355 GPS/COM.  If you keep your KX155 as COM 2, you also still have ILS/LOC/VOR.  Down the road you could move the GNC into the #2 spot and get whatever the latest & greatest is and put that in the #1 spot.

Another option at a higher cost would be to consider the GTN-650.  You may be able to find a used "650" if someone has upgraded to the 650Xi.  And even a new 650 should have dropped a little in price now that the 650Xi is out.

 

Look at the GI-275 before the M5.  In a recent Webinar Garmin discussed how the M5 was designed for a specific purpose, the 275 was designed to make up for what the M5 didn't do and a whole lot more. 

The GI-275 MIGHT drive your Autopilot.  Check with Garmin (aviation.support@garmin.com).

All of the above GPS/NAVs will feed the GI-275.  I believe it will take two GPS and two NAV signals.  So you're covered when you ultimately have to upgrade the KX155.

ALSO...  Be sure to consider the ADAHRS+AP version.  Assuming they tell you it will drive your Autopilot, with this version you've got the battery backup if you have an electrical failure.  And down the road, if you install a second unit, you should be able to remove your vacuum system.  [need to confirm]

Good luck!

 

 

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1 hour ago, PeteMc said:

The 430 is a good unit and they are available for a lot less.  Down side is they are older and all will be used.  So no real knowledge on humidity where the plane lived, how many hard landings (daily with student pilots, etc.). 

OR...  Consider the GNC-355 GPS/COM.  If you keep your KX155 as COM 2, you also still have ILS/LOC/VOR.  Down the road you could move the GNC into the #2 spot and get whatever the latest & greatest is and put that in the #1 spot.

With a working KX155 in the panel giving you ILS/LOC/VOR I would definitely consider the GNC355 over a used 430. It is a great little unit.

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So 34X is flying and my PPL training has resumed.  The squawk list is getting shorter and shorter.  Later this year I'll replace the main donuts, might rebuild the trim jack screw...all good stuff to keep the bird healthy.  However, I plan on going IFR pretty fast after I get my VFR PPL. There is so much to learn about this topic and the avionics options.  I'm not someone that just drops my plane off somewhere and just does what a shop recommends.  I like to be an educated consumer, especially since this upgrade is going to cost as much as nice used car, and I'll probably be heavily involved with the procurement of the stuff and installation.  I think I'm also going to have to help figure out what the Brittain system needs and my local avionics folks don't seem to know much about it.
Hoping to pick the brains of some of the experts here to think through my options to help me arrive at the best plan so I can start daydreaming and preparing.  
When I purchased the plane it was previously being used for IFR, however, it is no longer capable for several reasons:  the DME was stolen before I bought the plane and whoever installed the marker beacon equipment had no business wiring a go-cart...not to mention an airplane and I ended up taking out, and terminating, a lot of the wires that seemed to be connected to the marker beacon box behind the panel...trust me, it was a mess of "not safe" stuff.  
What I have now you can see in the picture and I'll list some more details here (remember I don't know much about IFR requirements and terms, so this is why I need help to prepare):
  • Brittain Accutrak is working, but wonders a bit, haven't messed with it too much since fixing the servos.  Altitude hold seems to be in-op.  I'm not sure if I'll be able to fix it.  Someday, long in the future I may move to something like TruTrac...but I doubt it.
  • Narco Audio panel with marker beacon lights and button...old...old.. radio bits work, don't know if the beacon and approach parts work.
  • Narco Com 1
  • KX-155 Com 2
  • VOR with Glide Slope.  It's connected to the KX-155 ...strange its on the top I know.  (Connected to Brittain Accutrack)
  • HSI (Narco I think), not a very nice unit, not slaved for heading, electric at least so a decent backup, but old, big and heavy.    (I think it is also connected to Brittain Accutrack)
  • Stratus ESG 3i transponder with AHRS for backup
  • Old vacuum Artificial horizon and DG
  • New vertical card compass (not show in the picture), cabin needs demag to improve deviation card.
My mission is to travel with family pretty long distance and my IFR need is to give us more safe flying days.  I want to be able to punch through clouds on departure mainly.  I'm not looking to fly in the soup for long or even run challenging IFR approaches unless its an emergency.
Looking to do this for under $15k.  What I "think" I should do:
  1. Pull the Narco radio and insert a GPS/COM unit.  One big question here is which?
    1. I've left room for a large GPS in the center stack but I'm not sure if it's worth the additional money since I'm going to be a heavy Foreflight user.  I just need the GPS to drive the autopilot and approaches...I think.  
    2. 430 WAAS? Will it allow me to run all GPS approaches?  Seems to be the cheapest options, what do I loose vs a 640 or newer Avidyne unit (IFD 540?)?
  2. Pull the vacuum AI and old HSI and insert a G5 or the new UAvionics unit.  Not sure why one would be better than the other.  Keep the vacuum DG... I need vacuum for accutrak anyway.  I don't want to rely on vacuum AI...however, I do have the stratus AHRS unit for backup.  
  3. Connect the GPS to the the Accutrak.  This is important to me, I'm hoping that by some miracle I can use this system still to reduce workload at least during stable cruise and I'm hoping it will track GPS better than VOR and VOR headings are becoming too rare to be very useful for the autopilot.  I think I can send the GPS signal to the VOR instrument so I can see my course and glideslope without looking at the GPS screen and it outputs what the Accutrak needs, but I'm not sure.  Maybe the GPS can connect direct to the Accutrak.
  4. I don't think I need VOR approach and marker beacon capability.  Again, my IFR knowledge is weak at this point.  I'm gathering that GPS gets me pretty much anywhere these days.  So I'm not sure that it's worth fixing any of the old IFR approach stuff.
  5. I have a decent setup for intercom and the audio panel works.  I've not seen a good reason to upgrade it even though its probably older than me.  lol
 
So what do you think?  Help me spend some money later this year!
1966681213_Panelbeforenewcompass.thumb.jpg.1f874ff5db84773e11e427dd3d0d279f.jpg


I have been through your situation. Back in the early 1990s I bought my Mooney equipped very similar to your’s. After I got my instrument rating a year later, I flew for 7 years with just the half working wing leveler. The only avionics work I did was to keep things running and to add an electronic clock and GEM.

I think you are going about this the right way. I would look at all of your wants/needs and try to accomplish as much as possible with your budget.

The first thing you want is to upgrade to a GPS. With the plans to decommission VORs, a working GPS will become a necessity. I would look at the 355. The 650 will cost you a lot more.

The next thing you want to do is consider removing the Narco stuff. The company is gone and the support is limited. Some may argue to keep it until it fails. Well, what will happen is that it will fail and you won’t be able to get on a schedule to have something supported put in the panel. I would replace the HSI with something that will work with the 355 and support the KX-155.

I would consider getting a basic engine analyzer in the panel. IFR brings the risk factor up a level and you want as much information available on the health of your engine.


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Good luck with the upgrades!

My one suggestion, very few $$ required:  arrange your pilot side instruments in a standard T arrangement.  That is the standard for airplanes nowadays, and will help you with instrument training.  To achieve this, all that needs done is to move the VSI one hole to the right, and install the HSI below the attitude indicator.  Not sure why you have a second DG, but I’d consider removing it at the same time.

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32 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Good luck with the upgrades!

My one suggestion, very few $$ required:  arrange your pilot side instruments in a standard T arrangement.  That is the standard for airplanes nowadays, and will help you with instrument training.  To achieve this, all that needs done is to move the VSI one hole to the right, and install the HSI below the attitude indicator.  Not sure why you have a second DG, but I’d consider removing it at the same time.

That was my original plan actually.  I ended up with what I have for a couple of reasons...  I couldn't get the DG to fit one slot to the left...I had a really tough time getting the instruments all to fit and while finally bolting it all up, after a couple of months of hard labor getting it that far....darn thing wouldn't fit. The yoke bushing mount is in the way (There is a way to re-orient it, but was out of motivation and guts to make any more modifications).  But I found that if I swapped it with the VSI...it worked.  And then the HSI...I didn't want to try and extend all the wires back there and it wouldn't reach to the middle of the panel to replace the DG, and I couldn't even move it up (too long, hits the bars, which is why its at the bottom turns out).  I didn't have the Accutrak working yet, so didn't know if the HSI was driving it or the VOR OBS, so I opted to keep both for now.  My thinking was I'd eventually put something like a G5 HSI in... and it probably would fit in the bottom middle position.  Then I make that lower right hole a drink holder?  lol

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One thing I've noticed now after flying the new panel layout... I can't see the TC (which I installed with the panel upgrad)... the left yoke handle is dead center in my vision over it so I can't see the ball without flexing to see around it.  I honestly try to look at it quite a lot while training...   There doesn't seem to be an ideal layout....everything has compromises it seems. Except some of these new all-in-one AI instruments.  Maybe these others become backup if i get the GI-275

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1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

With a working KX155 in the panel giving you ILS/LOC/VOR I would definitely consider the GNC355 over a used 430. It is a great little unit.

Do I need to get the marker beacon working again to make the ILS/LOC/VOR useable?  There is an antenna on the belly, a military looking box stuffed under the avionics access panel with on a PN on it that pulls up references to beacons on Google (receiver box maybe?).  Don't know if its feasible to re-discover how to wire it properly again.  If I get a newer audio panel does it have marker beacon receiver built it(Assuming I'll need it)?

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1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I would replace the HSI with something that will work with the 355 and support the KX-155.

Meaning an HSI that takes a NAV with Glideslope from the 155 and GPS signal?  I suppose then i could drop the Narco HSI and the Vacuum DG.  Opens up two holes.  Any idea what fits this bill?

Saves some weight.  I like saving weight.  I lost 67lbs usable when I weighed the plane a month ago.

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Again.  In your case, I'd really look at one GI-275 with the plan to add a second one as funds allow.

Other option could be to add something like the Aspen if you wanted to go that route, with the first GI-275 as the legal Backup.  Then you can leave the 275 on the Traffic or any other page you want most of the time.

 

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Meaning an HSI that takes a NAV with Glideslope from the 155 and GPS signal?  I suppose then i could drop the Narco HSI and the Vacuum DG.  Opens up two holes.  Any idea what fits this bill?
Saves some weight.  I like saving weight.  I lost 67lbs usable when I weighed the plane a month ago.


The challenge will be your budget. If 15AMU is all you have to work with, at a minimum you will need a GPS compatible CDI that supports the 355. A G5 will support that. I am an Aspen owner, so I would check with the folks here if the G5 and/or GI-275 can support the analog output of the KX-155. My Aspen can handle either the GPS or an analog signal (originally had my Narco Mark-12D+ connected to it).

If the Garmin stuff can’t support the analog and you don’t want to go with an Aspen, another option is to go with the G5 or GI-275 to support the 355 GPS output and look for a used King CDI to support your KX-155 for the VOR & ILS (I will need to look at your panel again to see if you have a CDI already installed).

As for your autopilot. In 1998 when I installed a STEC 60-2, I had no idea how much of a workload I was carrying by hand flying everything. I would check to see if the G5 and/or GI-275 can handle an analog signal to at least support the heading bug.

My greatest advice, sit down with a good avionics shop and try to figure out your options for now and prepare for the future. Once you start upgrading, you will want to see if you can do as much as possible now and have a plan for the next wave when finances permit. Every time your plane goes under the screwdriver, you are duplicating costs. I did my upgrades over 5 years. Knowing what I know now, I would have done it all at the same time.

aa58d47c2d8df229b30aefd2f7977999.jpgb6391cdb81915b1bf4e75850c5293797.jpg34e9fa4a89c7a578c8d36cdac7d65ec2.jpg7cdf753df6c92041b5f8806cbabb1d5d.jpg


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Installing old junk is not highly recommended...

But, since your budget is limited...

And you may have some technical skill...

And you know how to work with other people...

There is a KLN89 offered for sale around here today... it came out of somebody’s Ovation

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/37223-ovation-items/?tab=comments#comment-638494

KLNs were one of the first GPSs used for complete GPS navigation from T/O to landing...

They are not WAAS, so they do not handle vertical navigation...

Get it negotiated to about free... and install with the help of your favorite mechanic...

Then see what Alan has on the shelf...

PP thoughts only,

-a-

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Thanks for the continued feedback. 

Here's the deal with me... I'm someone that wants to know more about what needs to be done than the person I'm about to ask to do the work so I know if they know what they are talking about.  And so I research and research, and read all the manuals and watch all the install videos and ask a bunch of questions...  next thing you know, all I need is my toolbox and I might as well do it myself...especially when these shops seem to take months to get something done after you wait months to get on a schedule.  I don't think I have the patience for that.  The list of things that other people have fixed or worked-on for me in my lifetime is very short.  lol   

I have a pretty good relationship with my A&P/IA/Avionics folks.  They know what I can do now after installing my engine monitor, completely overhauling my panel, and doing the majority of the work on the nose gear and engine R&R. I believe I'll be able to do most of the labor with their oversight/guidance.  I'd have my A&P license if it didn't require regular employment in the role.  So consider the large majority of my budget as parts.  (I'm going to get quotes for the install, but I'm pretty sure the labor sticker shock, and time down, will persuade me to add Avionics wiring to my skillset).

Now, with that said, I think this is a limitation when discussing new Garmin stuff.  It's my understanding they are pretty picky about dealer installs.  

I don't have any brand loyalties yet.  I'd probably be fine with Aspen stuff as well.  There are just too many options out there.  I'm also not looking for the latest and greatest, I just want to safely punch through clouds with an approach capable functional GPS (WAAS i think is a requirement for me).  I think the big challenge here is the new stuff coming out isn't much more than the used 430/530 WAAS units in surplus at the moment.

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Yes, Garmin is a stickler for dealer installations.  I'm sure it's their lawyers pushing it.  After an accident, everyone gets sued and they have the deepest pockets.

Having said that...   See if your regular guys have any kind of relationship with a Garmin dealer.  Maybe the dealer will let them do the installation, which is really no different than letting a junior tech do it in one plane while the dealers working in another.  When the installation is done, the dealer can do the configuration and confirm the install.

 

 

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The GNC355 says it will work with the KI-209.  And I believe most if not all of the Garmin GPS still have analog outputs that will drive the KI-209. 

And that's a pretty common unit, so I'm guessing most GPS manufacturers have outputs that will drive it.  [Avionics guy needs to confirm]

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1 hour ago, Nukemzzz said:

Thanks for the continued feedback. 

Here's the deal with me... I'm someone that wants to know more about what needs to be done than the person I'm about to ask to do the work so I know if they know what they are talking about.  And so I research and research, and read all the manuals and watch all the install videos and ask a bunch of questions...  next thing you know, all I need is my toolbox and I might as well do it myself...especially when these shops seem to take months to get something done after you wait months to get on a schedule.  I don't think I have the patience for that.  The list of things that other people have fixed or worked-on for me in my lifetime is very short.  lol   

I have a pretty good relationship with my A&P/IA/Avionics folks.  They know what I can do now after installing my engine monitor, completely overhauling my panel, and doing the majority of the work on the nose gear and engine R&R. I believe I'll be able to do most of the labor with their oversight/guidance.  I'd have my A&P license if it didn't require regular employment in the role.  So consider the large majority of my budget as parts.  (I'm going to get quotes for the install, but I'm pretty sure the labor sticker shock, and time down, will persuade me to add Avionics wiring to my skillset).

Now, with that said, I think this is a limitation when discussing new Garmin stuff.  It's my understanding they are pretty picky about dealer installs.  

I don't have any brand loyalties yet.  I'd probably be fine with Aspen stuff as well.  There are just too many options out there.  I'm also not looking for the latest and greatest, I just want to safely punch through clouds with an approach capable functional GPS (WAAS i think is a requirement for me).  I think the big challenge here is the new stuff coming out isn't much more than the used 430/530 WAAS units in surplus at the moment.

You will get sticker shock when you see the labor costs. That said, when you see what a panel upgrade entails, you can understand why it costs so much. If the shop is decent, they will not only just stick the new stuff in but also correct the stuff that was done wrong in past installations. I will give you an example. In 2012 I had the Aspens installed along with the 650. That installation required them to use both radio stacks. In 2013, I had the same shop install a GNC255 and a GTX-327. Again, using the both radio stacks. In 2015, they installed my WX-500 and again was in the panel making connections. During those installations I had asked them to remove all dead wiring.

Fast forward to 2017, I had moved my business to a new shop. Getting ready for the ADS-B mandate, I had the shop install a Lynx and asked if they would make a new panel for the center rack. The shop called and asked if I would come in and look at some things. I get to the shop and found they had completely rebuilt my radio stacks. And I mean completely. They show me the old stack and pointed out where the previous shop had notched away the structure to make things fit, showed where they should have used support for the racks and how they had jammed wires behind the stack, the very old wiring I had asked the previous shop to remove. The shop owner said he couldn't in good faith let me take the plane that way and rebuilt the stack at no charge. With a wink, he said it would make it easier the next time they worked on my plane -- guess who has been working on my plane since then?

I am like you in that I did a lot of research on what I wanted before meeting with the shops. A good shop will appreciate that knowledge and make the conversation with them more meaningful. They will point out the benefits of going in one direction or another. You should always keep your long range plan in mind. It will help prevent rework.

 

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3 hours ago, PeteMc said:

The GNC355 says it will work with the KI-209.  And I believe most if not all of the Garmin GPS still have analog outputs that will drive the KI-209. 

And that's a pretty common unit, so I'm guessing most GPS manufacturers have outputs that will drive it.  [Avionics guy needs to confirm]

My understanding is the 209A works with GPS because it has a switchable internal controller, But the 209 does not. 

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1 hour ago, 1964-M20E said:

I would go with the Avidyne IFD-550 it has a built in backup AI couple it to a new CDI.  Keep the King for NAV/COM 2

This gives you a good NAV/COM platform for IFR flight.  Getting the AP upgraded would be a good next step to make life easier.

 

That’s an awesome unit but it’s $21k new. Do you see many used ones out there. 

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24 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

That’s an awesome unit but it’s $21k new. Do you see many used ones out there. 

Are you familiar with the pre-flown avionics shelf at Alan’s house?

Things like this come in every now and then...

If you become an avid avionics collector... you can find some awesome devices... at a fair price...

Best regards,

-a-

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1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Are you familiar with the pre-flown avionics shelf at Alan’s house?

Things like this come in every now and then...

If you become an avid avionics collector... you can find some awesome devices... at a fair price...

Best regards,

-a-

Yes, I’ve purchased something from Alan and I’m notified anytime someone posits on the aviation classified on Facebook and i monitor it on MS as well.  I’m not sure that I’ve seen a 550 anywhere near the budget I’m trying to set. Seems if it works it’s gotta be at least $16k with no harness or tray just for than one part. It’s a shame because it’s a nice unit. 540 is a little cheaper...still too much though I think. 

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