Door pop open on take off?...

[Stryk77]

Hi everyone, 

I am recent owner of a 1979 Mooney M20K 262 Trophy. Airframe has 4288h total on it. I took her out for a spin today, flew up to 9500ft into cruise from sea level (I live in Montreal, Canada). 
 

After flying for 1.4h we (my instructor and I) requested a touch and go before a full stop when back into the Control zone. Back on the initial climb to 1100ft, as we turned for cross, we heard a loud “pop” and the door opened. Even reducing the speed to 65kt with full flaps and landing gear, the pressure was still to high and we only closed it at touch down. 
 

The door has been hard to close since day one I bought it...requires force to shut and lock (which locks) Is that hard to shut a normal thing? Could the inflating door seal be causing an issue? 
 

Has anyone encountered this issue in general?
 

Yes, before anyone asks, the door was shut before any takeoff. The aircraft is now in maintenance, will see what comes from it. 
 

Have a good evening,

 

thanks.

[carusoam]

Well....

1) That isn’t normal...

2) Inflated seals have been used without any issues for years...

3) Closing a door in flight is possible, but really hard to do... surface area, vacuum...

4) Most often an improperly closed door, pops open on rotation...

5) Depending on the year of the Mooney, there may be different closure points...

6) you definitely want to review the door operation to make sure it is working properly...

7) If you close it properly, the pins are in place and make it impossible to open accidentally...

Review what you have, take some pics, see what didn’t work correctly...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

Welcome aboard!

Mooney fuselages are hand made -- cut to size, beat to fit, painted to match. No two are exactly the same. The doors can take a beating over the years if people use them for support to extract themselves from the airplane. The doors are a bit difficult to latch. In my limited experience owning two J models and flying in a few others of various vintage over the years, you have to pull it to and hold it closed with the door strap or hand hold (depending on the model) and it takes a bit of force to get the handle over center because it is pretty short. It's pretty easy not to get one of the two latches engaged and if that happens there is a gap and some noise. I've never had one come completely open and if that happened I would think it is not rigged properly and I would have that checked out.

Skip 

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Stryk77 said:

Hi everyone, 

I am recent owner of a 1979 Mooney M20K 262 Trophy. Airframe has 4288h total on it. I took her out for a spin today, flew up to 9500ft into cruise from sea level (I live in Montreal, Canada). 
 

After flying for 1.4h we (my instructor and I) requested a touch and go before a full stop when back into the Control zone. Back on the initial climb to 1100ft, as we turned for cross, we heard a loud “pop” and the door opened. Even reducing the speed to 65kt with full flaps and landing gear, the pressure was still to high and we only closed it at touch down. 
 

The door has been hard to close since day one I bought it...requires force to shut and lock (which locks) Is that hard to shut a normal thing? Could the inflating door seal be causing an issue? 
 

Has anyone encountered this issue in general?
 

Yes, before anyone asks, the door was shut before any takeoff. The aircraft is now in maintenance, will see what comes from it. 
 

Have a good evening,

 

thanks.

If you fly Mooneys long enough this will happen to you. In your POH under EMERGENCY PROCEDURES review the section UNLATCHED DOOR IN FLIGHT.

 

[MooneyMitch]

If my memory serves me correctly, my Ovation handbook provided a procedure for securing an opened door in flight........ something to the effect of slowing to a specific airspeed, crabbing the aircraft to certain direction, opening the pilot side window and securing the door.

I never tried it, but it seems rather like being able to pat your head with one hand and rubbing your stomach with the other......all while balancing on one foot !!   All while continuing to fly the airplane.

But, seriously, I think it’s on the POH....... anyone ??? 

[Yetti]

Not going to be able to close in flight.   Don't ask me how I know.   Just keep stuff from flying out.    There are several adjustments for the door latch mechanism.  Competent mechanic should be able to figure it out.

@PT20J said hammer to fit, paint to match.

 

[HIghpockets]

Trying to close an open door in flight in a J is a spiffy way to lose control and wreck a perfectly good airplane.

[Stryk77]

Ok! Thanks everyone for the input. 
 

I agree with many of you, I will convey the info to my mechanic this morning. 
 

have a great day, 

 

thanks. 

[Seth]

The turnbuckle inside my door snapped in 2013 with my wife on board (then fiance at the time). The door was not held shut entirely and the aerodynamic forces caused the bottom portion of the door to be pulled open about a half inch. She was cold during the flight despite full heat so I handed her a blanket I kept on the back seat, and she put it over her lap, tucked it toward the door, and it was instantaneously sucked out. She calmly explained to me what happened, I asked her if blanket was hung up on the horizontal stabilizer and it was not. So there' s navy blanket that was given to a property in virginia somewhere via air delivery. I slowed down knowing I had a problem, landed at Shenandoah Airport, had her go to the back seat, and used the seatbelt to double secure the door closed for the remainder of the flight. 

 I had to have the turnbuckle replaced. It was not calibrated correctly at some point thus causing the overload and snap. Someone familiar with Mooney doors may be able to better adjust your door so it's easy to open and close but also stays closed.

I've had the door pop open twice in flight - once before, and once after that. Both times its when I had a passenger close the door (who had demonstrated they could) and I didn't check it. Last time was about 5 years ago and I just check it was closed every time now myself regardless of what passenger is on board (except my wife who knows it cold).

Have a mechanic familiar with the door take a look at the turnbuckle and make any appropriate adjustments. It should be easy to open and close.

-Seth

[Danb]

Hey Stryk it’s most likely hard to close due to the inflated door, during run-up I close my door and inflate it, if it’s inflated prior to closing mine won’t even close. Also when or if an offsite landing or controlled crash don’t forget to deflate the door for exiting. I’d include these items in your checklists. So rain won’t enter the plane when parked inflate it a little to keep the water out.

[LANCECASPER]

When I bought a Bravo in 1996 a Flight Safety course came with the purchase. Surprisingly, we practiced with the steps on what you would do if that happened. We did it three times. Once the passenger (CFI) shut it easily in the slip. Second time we practiced it as if there was no passenger. With proper altitude and knowing that the CFI had just been able to close it, it wasn't a big deal and we didn't get into an unusual attitude - it was just a couple seconds. Third time we left it alone and it was still a non-event (but quite a bit louder), showing that flying the airplane is the number one priority in any emergency. The strangest part of the whole deal was watching the CFI reach up and open the door in flight.

I've had it happen twice for real, both times with passengers. Once the passenger was very GA-friendly and followed instructions as I slipped the airplane. Second time the passenger was scared to death - we left it alone and I reassured him that the door wasn't going to open any further and pull him out of the airplane. We landed at the closest airport and it was no big deal - he still talks about it to this day though . . lol. My procedure now with passengers before we take off is they pull the door in securely with the strap and it latch it. then I beat on it a couple times just to make sure. If it's a first time passenger I cover the possibility of it opening beforehand and if it's in the summer I explain the nice breeze that they'll feel as a result, all at no extra charge.

[Seth]

6 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

When I bought a Bravo in 1996 a Flight Safety course came with the purchase. Surprisingly, we practiced with the steps on what you would do if that happened. We did it three times. Once the passenger (CFI) shut it easily in the slip. Second time we practiced it as if there was no passenger. With proper altitude and knowing that the CFI had just been able to close it, it wasn't a big deal and we didn't get into an unusual attitude - it was just a couple seconds. Third time we left it alone and it was still a non-event (but quite a bit louder), showing that flying the airplane is the number one priority in any emergency. The strangest part of the whole deal was watching the CFI reach up and open the door in flight.

I've had it happen twice for real, both times with passengers. Once the passenger was very GA-friendly and followed instructions as I slipped the airplane. Second time the passenger was scared to death - we left it alone and I reassured him that the door wasn't going to open any further and pull him out of the airplane. We landed at the closest airport and it was no big deal - he still talks about it to this day though . . lol. My procedure now with passengers before we take off is they pull the door in securely with the strap and it latch it. then I beat on it a couple times just to make sure. If it's a first time passenger I cover the possibility of it opening beforehand and if it's in the summer I explain the nice breeze that they'll feel as a result, all at no extra charge.

Can you describe the procedure? Is it just a level slip at X airspeed?

 

Thanks,

-Seth

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, Seth said:

Can you describe the procedure? Is it just a level slip at X airspeed?

 

Thanks,

-Seth

[MooneyMitch]

4 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Near same information in R model POH. 

[carusoam]

Hey...

Since we are discussing the main cabin door...

Just remember there are two doors...

And the other door can misbehave the same way...

 

I bring the same three people with me all the time... but I’m the guy that gets to close the doors... 

It’s a PIC privilege...

 

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[Igor_U]

I've got my complex endorsement on M20J and open door (on takeoff) was part of the training. CFI opened it just after the takeoff (we briefed that before) and after getting to the safe altitude, we closed it as per procedure above (open window and right sideslip). 

Years after in new to me M20F, doors opened at the moment we took off, with my wife as copilot. It was non-event and we closed it with no issues. She didn't latched the door completely as it was difficult to engage the both latches at the time. Shortly after, I installed a new seal and made sure it was properly formed and trimmed; we have no issue anymore. When latching, the door mechanism gives a positive feel and it never got open again.

 

[Seymour]

Are the physics of the right side slip obvious to the casual observer (or is it left as homework)?

I'd assume that it would put the door on the leeward side of the fuselage (but I've been trained not to AssUMe and ask instead).

[carusoam]

Use outside air as battering ram to help close the door...

Slow it down to generate less vacuum...

Open side window to keep any air pressure (if available) from hindering the closing...

Use lots of altitude... a simple mistake while near the ground can easily turn into too much altitude lost...

Fly the plane, it is not an emergency...  (even though the procedure is in the emergency procedure section)

If you don’t get the door closed, the emergency may build depending on who is sitting next to the door... and the OAT.

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, Seymour said:

Are the physics of the right side slip obvious to the casual observer (or is it left as homework)?

I'd assume that it would put the door on the leeward side of the fuselage (but I've been trained not to AssUMe and ask instead).

No, it puts the door on the windward side, so the wind is pushing the door closed.   Opening the pilot-side storm window minimizes the pressure on the inside of the door so that the higher pressure on the outside has a better chance of pushing it closed.

So slip with a lot of left rudder and the right wing low.

 

[MooneyMitch]

2 minutes ago, EricJ said:

No, it puts the door on the windward side, so the wind is pushing the door closed.   Opening the pilot-side storm window minimizes the pressure on the inside of the door so that the higher pressure on the outside has a better chance of pushing it closed.

So slip with a lot of left rudder and the right wing low.

 

And slow down too !! 

[Hank]

7 hours ago, EricJ said:

No, it puts the door on the windward side, so the wind is pushing the door closed.   Opening the pilot-side storm window minimizes the pressure on the inside of the door so that the higher pressure on the outside has a better chance of pushing it closed.

So slip with a lot of left rudder and the right wing low.

 

Left aileron and right rudder puts the right-side door on the leeward side, as the plane will be moving through the air left-side first. Opening the storm window will reduce suction out the door.

I've closed my door in flight once, solo, after forgetting to close it for runup. I climbed straight out, going to 6500, and ignored the door on purpose until above 3000 msl. Gave it one try, it would either close or I'd fly the next 40 minutes with it open. 

[Seymour]

9 hours ago, EricJ said:

No, it puts the door on the windward side, so the wind is pushing the door closed.   Opening the pilot-side storm window minimizes the pressure on the inside of the door so that the higher pressure on the outside has a better chance of pushing it closed.

So slip with a lot of left rudder and the right wing low.

Wow, I was totally bass-akwards.     Although it explains why the physics didn't make sense, it's more concerning that I have my right and left swapped!    !!

It all started about a month ago when the pilot side tire was changed out due to wear and the AP listed "RH main tire replaced" in the log book and on the receipt.    (I guess if you're facing the prop....     Can I blame him for my screw up? )

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

Left aileron and right rudder puts the right-side door on the leeward side, as the plane will be moving through the air left-side first. Opening the storm window will reduce suction out the door.

That's backwards according to the POH page shown above.

[Hank]

57 minutes ago, EricJ said:

That's backwards according to the POH page shown above.

You're right, my coffee was still brewing this morning. A right bank with left elevator will swing the nose to the right, shielding the right-side door [making it leeward], while the left side is advanced [making it windward]. The fuselage will shield the door from the wind, and make it easier to close. It worked for me. Since I was still climbing, I didn't slip, but banked right and pulled her shut; I was actually surprised that it worked.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Hank

[MARZ]

Did exactly this with my F and it worked like a charm - I did however have a copilot - probably wouldn't attempt it alone. To be clear I slipped the plane so the right wing was leading air pressure pushing against the door.