O-360-A1D Lycoming Factory Reman

[flyer7324]

Thanks for the info. I would say that based on what you've written most "overhauled" engines are technically not really overhauled but just "major repaired" because no aircraft owner "recertifies" his engine gauges every year.

Does the factory run in suffice for the rebuilt engines to be considered actually "0" time or does the engine have to be broken in per the overhaul manual also?

[jetdriven]

I would like to know how the logbook comes from Lycoming and says the engine has been overhauled to zero hours since major overhaul, and then turn around and say well it's not "really" an overhaul because the gauges werent calibrated.

[cliffy]

If I'm not mistaken all factory engines are run in on their test cell after an overhaul and the test cells have calibrated gages. That suffices for that requirement The factory certifies that the engines are performing as required before delivery.

A field overhaul an run in is a different animal. 

[carusoam]

Something got lost in translation...

Calibrated instruments are important for performing maintenance tasks...

If using the instrument Panel’s decrepit instruments for doing engine installations and set-up work...

It would be best to get some independent calibrated instruments for the job...

Mechanics are familiar with this...

Much has been written regarding calibrating tools like torque wrenches over the years...

In some industries...calibration services can be bought...   some instruments get a schedule for the type of work that they do... daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly etc...

Life was more simple in the 60s... problem is... it was simple... not as complex as having fuel injection on everything...

PP thoughts only not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[markgrue]

I have a guy that comes around once a year with a big trailer and calibrates all my stuff.  Torque wrenches, multimeters, inferred thermometers, gauges, and all the calipers and micrometers.  It isn't cheap but I have to do it to meet the regs.  Most shops do the same.

 

Mark

[MikeOH]

6 hours ago, markgrue said:

I have a guy that comes around once a year with a big trailer and calibrates all my stuff.  Torque wrenches, multimeters, inferred thermometers, gauges, and all the calipers and micrometers.  It isn't cheap but I have to do it to meet the regs.  Most shops do the same.

 

Mark

The interesting question is what you do IF he finds any instrument out of calibration?

[markgrue]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

The interesting question is what you do IF he finds any instrument out of calibration?

It depends on what it is and how far out.   I tend to protect my tools pretty jealously and have not had a problem but it would range from getting the tool repaired to rechecked everything the tool was used for. 

 

Mark 

[cliffy]

Most tools have some adjustment for accuracy available also. If not and out of calibration buy a new one

[MikeOH]

15 minutes ago, markgrue said:

....rechecked everything the tool was used for. 

 

Mark 

THAT is the issue I was alluding to.  The costs associated with notifying affected customers and rechecking, not to mention potential liability, can be daunting.

[carusoam]

Part of the paperwork function... is called Quality Control.

The quality folks get to check the records to make sure all the I(s) get dotted, and T(s) get crossed...

When things aren’t finished completely, they get put in the rework cycle until done...

It may take months before the paper trail is finished...

The QC function can be as large and costly as the production function...

This is why getting a recall notice is surprising months or years after an item is bought...

 

In GA, we are relying on a high level of getting it right the first time... and proper design techniques that allow for imperfections  in the ownership years decades later...

You may be familiar with Ford Q1, TQM, and ISO9000.  Or this guy ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

There is a lot involved in determining how to do things in a repeatable way...

Parts and Maintenance Manuals are an important first step... Tools and Training are probably the next step... communication and notification are important skills to have as well...

Not only does your mechanic sign your log book, he has a traceable number he puts in there as well...

PP thoughts only, stuff I have seen in other industries...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[47U]

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

3 hours ago, markgrue said:

....rechecked everything the tool was used for. 

 

Mark 

THAT is the issue I was alluding to.  The costs associated with notifying affected customers and rechecking, not to mention potential liability, can be daunting.

I’ve got to throw a little sanity check in here...

First off, if you’re turning wrenches for a living, don’t buy your precision tools at Harbor Freight.  A quality tool, as long as it hasn’t been dropped, abused, and is stored properly is not going to lose a significant amount of its calibration over 12 months.  

As the using mechanic, are you going know every nut and bolt or gear preload that torque wrench has touched the previous 12 months?  This is not realistic.  

If you’re building up motors or propellers or other critical accessories, get your tools calibrated more often.  

You should be happy your mechanic uses a torque wrench in the first place.  There’s many out there who don’t bother.

Just my opinion.

[N201MKTurbo]

FWIW, 

I worked with NIST once upon a time. I wrote the software that operated the national DC voltage standard.

Calibration has nothing to do with making a device accurate. It is only the act of comparing to a known standard. 

In the metrology world, making a device accurate is called adjustment. NIST doesn’t adjust anything. 

So, with that in mind, the worst POS device could still be calibrated to a NIST traceable standard.

I happen to have a torque calibrator. My dad bought it at some auction. He didn’t know what it was but thought it looked cool. I was playing with my torque wrench the other day. I set it to 5 ft/Lbs and went till it clicked as accurately as I could. After ten trials, the range was 10 in/Lbs. At 10 ft/Lbs it was 4 in/Lbs. 

[N201MKTurbo]

So, I just searched for the calibration requirements for the FAA. Talk about a regulatory rat hole! Holy smokes!

The FAA doesn't really have any regulations about what calibration actually means. They just say you have to do it. There is some reference to the manufacturers recommendations. So if you get a harbor freight torque wrench and it doesn't have any calibration recommendations are you good to go? It also mentions industry standards, well there aren't any aviation industry standards that I could find, there are ISO standards for these things and that is what most calibration labs use. But the FAA doesn't specifically call this out. They make no mention of traceability. 

So, while the FAA doesn't specifically say what you have to do, you have to do something every year. 

So for pressure gauges, if you checked them against another gauge, you could say they were calibrated. 

Well, if you are a part 145 repair station, you have to have quality procedures that insure all your measurement tools are calibrated and NIST traceable. I don't see where that applies to non part 145 work.

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, I just searched for the calibration requirements for the FAA. Talk about a regulatory rat hole! Holy smokes!

The FAA doesn't really have any regulations about what calibration actually means. They just say you have to do it. There is some reference to the manufacturers recommendations. So if you get a harbor freight torque wrench and it doesn't have any calibration recommendations are you good to go? It also mentions industry standards, well there aren't any aviation industry standards that I could find, there are ISO standards for these things and that is what most calibration labs use. But the FAA doesn't specifically call this out. They make no mention of traceability. 

So, while the FAA doesn't specifically say what you have to do, you have to do something every year. 

So for pressure gauges, if you checked them against another gauge, you could say they were calibrated. 

Well, if you are a part 145 repair station, you have to have quality procedures that insure all your measurement tools are calibrated and NIST traceable. I don't see where that applies to non part 145 work.

This is what I'm finding as well.   I haven't even been able to find anything that definitively says you have to do it every year for Part 91.   So from that perspective, I have the calibration certification that came with my torque wrench (or whatever tool) that says it is a certified calibrated device (to whatever spec or standard used by the manufacturer, which may be of unknown traceability).   I think this defines that device as a certified calibrated tool.  Is there anything that says it stops being a certified calibrated tool at some point?   I haven't been able to find anything that says so.    If it needs to be "calibrated" does checking it against another device qualify (since that's what's done at a calibration shop, anyway)?   If so, if the spec and standard isn't called out for performing the calibration, I can buy an inexpensive bench tester and check it myself, no?

Part 145, 121, 135, 129, et al, have to define their own processes and get them approved, so if you work for one of those guys, you use whatever their approved process standards are. 

I did find this, straight from the FAA:

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2010/Apr/42911/Nuts and Bolts 10-01.pdf

The gist of that seems to be that the manufacturer's manual matters.   So I dug through the SMM for the M20J and the only service item that says specifically to use a "calibrated, certified torque application device" is for tightening the screws on the fuel sending unit gaskets.   It still doesn't specify what calibration  or certification standard may be applicable, or whether they have an expiration date.

Chapter 5 of my SMM has the fastener torque recommendation specs, which, as usual, have large tolerances for AN/MS fastener torques.   Many times in the SMM procedures when a specific torque is called out it is done so with no specified tolerance.   Not specifying a tolerance cannot mean the tolerance is zero, because that is not possible to achieve. 

My plan right now without specific regulatory guidance otherwise is to keep the original certs with the tools, and if a "calibration" is required without a specified methodology I'll compare it to my bench testers.

[markgrue]

On 1/16/2021 at 7:08 PM, MikeOH said:

THAT is the issue I was alluding to.  The costs associated with notifying affected customers and rechecking, not to mention potential liability, can be daunting.

This is very true.  I am the only one who uses my tools so I know when I drop one or do something that might damage it.  As far as knowing what it was used for I know if I change spark plugs or do a 100 hr or annual that the plugs were torqued when they were reinstalled.  I know the wheel bolts were torqued when a tire was changed and so on.  I have not had anything out of tolerance to the point that I had to chase anything down.  If I did a lot of work or had several people using the tools I would have multiples of everything and get them checked more often.  Right wrong or indifferent that is just the way I do it.

 

Mark

[Buckeyechuck]

I have a set of digital torque indicators I use to check my torque wrenches regularly. I know they will need calibrated at some time as well. They are still fairly new and came with calibration papers.  Don’t use them for wrenching. Not an AP/IA so only using them for “owner approved stuff”.  I stay heavily involved any time a mechanic touches my airplane. It’s my butt in the left seat, not his. 

[Raptor05121]

On 1/2/2021 at 10:07 PM, RLCarter said:

That whole rebuilt, overhauled, reman and new are confusing to me, haven’t really dug too deep 

Here you go.
 

 

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said:

Here you go.
 

 

In theory, you could send in your timed out engine, and get back the exact same parts and have a new serial number and 0 time engine.  

[jetdriven]

Just now, ragedracer1977 said:

In theory, you could send in your timed out engine, and get back the exact same parts and have a new serial number and 0 time engine.  

It’s not timed out, per se, because there are no life-limited parts in the engine.
But that is generally how this goes, you send the engine off, they take everything apart and measure it, machine it to an approved dimension, and then reassemble it with new bearings, washers, seals, and gaskets. 
and you are right, only the factory can take a bunch of parts that are not new  and call them zero time. Probably because they have no way to establish how much time is on each individual part which came from something else. 

[EricJ]

Aircraft Tool Supply (an excellent place to buy aviation-related tools) just sent me an email promotion for this.   "Use it to re-calibrate any type of torque wrench 1/2" drive UOM: Kg-CM, Kg-M, In-lb, Ft-lb, and N-m."

$49.95.

https://aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?id=23154

I have a similar one with slightly better calibration range that is branded AC Delco.  

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004VYURT0

Last week I checked a whole bunch of torque wrenches that I own, from my garage, hangar, track tools, etc., which included some very ancient Craftsman wrenches that I've owned for decades, a bunch of the cheapie Harbor Freight ones that I take to the track and don't care what happens to them, and an Icon that I bought about a year ago to keep in the hangar.  *All* of them are well within +/-4% tolerance, which is what most are shipped new with, and the good ones (including the Icon) are easily within +/-2%.

I also bought a 3/8" drive in-lbs bench calibrator and checked my smaller torque wrenches and a new Icon in-lb wrench that I bought.   Same thing, everything was pretty much spot-on within tolerance, including my old Craftsman micro-torque, which must be about 20 years old.

I wrote the date and the results on the factory cal sheet for my Icon.   ATS suggests I'm good to go. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by EricJ

[N201MKTurbo]

16 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

In theory, you could send in your timed out engine, and get back the exact same parts and have a new serial number and 0 time engine.  

There is a list of mandatory replacement parts and inspections, but other than that, it could happen.  

[cliffy]

3 hours ago, EricJ said:

Aircraft Tool Supply (an excellent place to buy aviation-related tools) just sent me an email promotion for this.   "Use it to re-calibrate any type of torque wrench 1/2" drive UOM: Kg-CM, Kg-M, In-lb, Ft-lb, and N-m."

$49.95.

https://aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?id=23154

I have a similar one with slightly better calibration range that is branded AC Delco.  

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004VYURT0

Last week I checked a whole bunch of torque wrenches that I own, from my garage, hangar, track tools, etc., which included some very ancient Craftsman wrenches that I've owned for decades, a bunch of the cheapie Harbor Freight ones that I take to the track and don't care what happens to them, and an Icon that I bought about a year ago to keep in the hangar.  *All* of them are well within +/-4% tolerance, which is what most are shipped new with, and the good ones (including the Icon) are easily within +/-2%.

I also bought a 3/8" drive in-lbs bench calibrator and checked my smaller torque wrenches and a new Icon in-lb wrench that I bought.   Same thing, everything was pretty much spot-on within tolerance, including my old Craftsman micro-torque, which must be about 20 years old.

I wrote the date and the results on the factory cal sheet for my Icon.   ATS suggests I'm good to go. 

Shouldn't the "calibrator" unit be calibrated to make sure it doesn't go "out of calibration" over the years? 

I think Snap-on used to have a calibrator in their trucks at one time. 

[EricJ]

24 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Shouldn't the "calibrator" unit be calibrated to make sure it doesn't go "out of calibration" over the years? 

I think Snap-on used to have a calibrator in their trucks at one time. 

The AC Delco reference unit I bought came with a calibration certificate, for whatever it's worth.   There's no requirement I know of to ever get it recalibrated, just like there doesn't seem to be any requirement to get the torque wrenches "recalibrated" for Part 91 use.   I mostly did it to keep my IA happy since I suspect he'll ask.

Also, fwiw, these units are essentially the same as the "calibrator" that the Snap-on, et al, guys carry in their trucks.   Ask to see theirs next time, or the specs/cal on it. 

[cliffy]

26 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The AC Delco reference unit I bought came with a calibration certificate, for whatever it's worth.   There's no requirement I know of to ever get it recalibrated, just like there doesn't seem to be any requirement to get the torque wrenches "recalibrated" for Part 91 use

 

I have known a couple Feds who could query you on the calibration issue even Pt 91 due to the man'f specifying a specific torque setting for certain jobs and it may fall under Pt 23 "Certification" instead of Pt "91 General Operation and Flight Rules"

And actually in 43.13-1b Section 7-40 Torques  paragraph 7-40a below-

 a. Calibrate the torque wrench at least once a year, or immediately after it has been abused or dropped, to ensure continued accuracy. 

calls out specifically for a calibration check as     ACCEPTABLE METHODS, TECHNIQUES, AND PRACTICES AIRCRAFT

Although only an Advisory Circular it "could" be used for action against anyone doing "maintenance" without a calibrated wrench within "a" above. 

[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, cliffy said:

I have known a couple Feds who could query you on the calibration issue even Pt 91 due to the man'f specifying a specific torque setting for certain jobs and it may fall under Pt 23 "Certification" instead of Pt "91 General Operation and Flight Rules"

And actually in 43.13-1b Section 7-40 Torques  paragraph 7-40a below-

 a. Calibrate the torque wrench at least once a year, or immediately after it has been abused or dropped, to ensure continued accuracy. 

calls out specifically for a calibration check as     ACCEPTABLE METHODS, TECHNIQUES, AND PRACTICES AIRCRAFT

Although only an Advisory Circular it "could" be used for action against anyone doing "maintenance" without a calibrated wrench within "a" above. 

The Mooney SMM for my airplane only specifies a calibrated tool be used when tightening the screws on the fuel sender gaskets.   Few torque specifications in the SMM are given with tolerances, which makes them only general in any practical sense, imho.   43.13, even if somebody went out on a limb and tried to apply it as regulatory in an action, does not specify a calibration standard.   Comparing a unit under test against another calibrated device is pretty much what is done in "calibration", even to a typical recognized standard process, so I'm confident I'm meeting or exceeding requirements and can point to the relevant documents to show why I believe that.   That's really as much as anyone can do.