Albuquerque to Scottsdale advice

[Gary0747]

I fly to Phoenix from Michigan frequently in my NA Mooney. My most recent flight I refueled near you at KSDA. My last refuel was at KLHX. Flew La Veta pass to KDVT VFR.   La Veta pass has an AWOS.  If weather that route is not good I will refuel at KDHT and fly OTTO ABQ SJN KDVT VFR. Plan for a quick descent to get under PHX class B after clearing the high country north of KPAN.   I will not fly either route if the forecast winds at 12,000 feet are over 25 knots.  I never fly IFR in weather or clouds over the mountains. 

[kevinw]

38 minutes ago, Gary0747 said:

I fly to Phoenix from Michigan frequently in my NA Mooney. My most recent flight I refueled near you at KSDA. My last refuel was at KLHX. Flew La Veta pass to KDVT VFR.   La Veta pass has an AWOS.  If weather that route is not good I will refuel at KDHT and fly OTTO ABQ SJN KDVT VFR. Plan for a quick descent to get under PHX class B after clearing the high country north of KPAN.   I will not fly either route if the forecast winds at 12,000 feet are over 25 knots.  I never fly IFR in weather or clouds over the mountains. 

My goal is to keep my altitude at 12,000 and I can't do that on this route IFR because the MEAs reach 13,000. Others mentioned doing this VFR and if I can stay under the class B airspace that might be the way to go. Thanks

[Immelman]

I don't understand the fixation on IFR flying over the mountains in a piston single..... unless its the I Follow Roads variety. I40 from ABQ, hang a left around the meteor crater, or Show Low., or Flagstaff (hey, Sedona area looks really cool from the air). But there are lots of ways to do it. Philosophically I am with @KLRDMD... VFR is better.

 

If IFR is used as a traffic avoidance technique, then file from some fix near PHX and pickup in the air after most of your trip is behind you...

Edited December 31, 2020 by Immelman

[Immelman]

13 hours ago, MikeOH said:

While I wholeheartedly agree that you should have survival gear when flying over inhospitable terrain, per this Wikipedia entry, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Fossett  was killed on impact. Do you have other info?

 

I have hiked near where he went in. I have flown around there, too, taking photos of some of my favorite alpine lakes and mountain terrain. On a nice calm day with sufficient altitude one could glide to a number of safe landing sites. Then that gear might come in handy. But around the rocks, next to them, with some wind, and you are like a leaf getting tossed where ever, which is what sounds like what happened to Steve.

[gsxrpilot]

54 minutes ago, Immelman said:

I don't understand the fixation on IFR flying over the mountains in a piston single..... unless its the I Follow Roads variety. I40 from ABQ, hang a left around the meteor crater, or Show Low., or Flagstaff (hey, Sedona area looks really cool from the air). But there are lots of ways to do it. Philosophically I am with @KLRDMD... VFR is better.

IFR or rather IMC in the mountains in the winter = ice. You're better off staying in clear air with as much flexibility as possible and that means VFR. Flight Following is a good option, but stay VFR.

I'd also plan to take a right turn at Pueblo, CO and draw a straight line from there to Scottsdale. No need to go any further south as long as you've got clear air.

[KLRDMD]

5 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I would not worry about congested airspace around PHX. If you are concerned about training traffic there is just as much of that around Grand Forks as there is around PHX. There is an organization in PHX that publishes a training area map that you can import into Foreflight and display. https://aftw.org/ . I have flown around lots of congested airspace, such as Chicago, it is much worse out east and through FL than it is around PHX. I spent a few days training out of KIWA there last year, I would not characterize the training areas as very congested that time of year.

I'm guessing you haven't flown "the stack" at TFD?

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, kevinw said:

My goal is to keep my altitude at 12,000 and I can't do that on this route IFR because the MEAs reach 13,000. Others mentioned doing this VFR and if I can stay under the class B airspace that might be the way to go. Thanks

Staying under the class B VFR is pretty easy from the NE.   From KPAN or thereabouts, even quite a bit south of KPAN, you can easily cross the Mazatzal Mt ridge at 8500, or much less if you're paying attention and take one of the large passes.   From there the Verde Valley (with Horseshoe reservoir and Bartlett Lake) gives an easy descent path that will keep you well clear of the Bravo.   This is a nice route if you're going to SDL or DVT.   It's usually how I return to DVT from anywhere E or NE.   You can cross the ridge anywhere from KPAN to Four Peaks as there are a lot of easy places to do so.

If you want to go to FFZ or CHD there is some additional terrain to navigate, but if you're VFR and looking outside it's pretty easy to navigate and actually pretty scenic.   Four Peaks is a very prominent and easy-to-identify landmark just west of Roosevelt Lake, and you can go either side of it heading toward FFZ and descent with the terrain.   If you're looking outside the routes will be obvious.    If you go just south of Four Peaks you can follow the Salt River valley which is also very scenic.   If you go by within 15 minutes past the top of the hour you can see the fountain at Fountain Hills, which is actually pretty spectacular from the air.   It's a landmark you can see from a long way away, but only during the time the pumps are running. 

Basically, if you're VFR it's not hard to get in under the Bravo shelves if you're looking out the window and watching your altimeter.   You do have to plan ahead and not start down too late, but just paying attention gets you there pretty easily.

There are other local tricks, like shooting the gap between the FFZ and IWA class D spaces to get to CHD, or sneaking under the Bravo in the gaps between PHX and FFZ or GYR, that require paying a lot more attention.   Just getting under the Bravo from the E or NE is pretty easy VFR.

[kevinw]

8 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Staying under the class B VFR is pretty easy from the NE.   From KPAN or thereabouts, even quite a bit south of KPAN, you can easily cross the Mazatzal Mt ridge at 8500, or much less if you're paying attention and take one of the large passes.   From there the Verde Valley (with Horseshoe reservoir and Bartlett Lake) gives an easy descent path that will keep you well clear of the Bravo.   This is a nice route if you're going to SDL or DVT.   It's usually how I return to DVT from anywhere E or NE.   You can cross the ridge anywhere from KPAN to Four Peaks as there are a lot of easy places to do so.

If you want to go to FFZ or CHD there is some additional terrain to navigate, but if you're VFR and looking outside it's pretty easy to navigate and actually pretty scenic.   Four Peaks is a very prominent and easy-to-identify landmark just west of Roosevelt Lake, and you can go either side of it heading toward FFZ and descent with the terrain.   If you're looking outside the routes will be obvious.    If you go just south of Four Peaks you can follow the Salt River valley which is also very scenic.   If you go by within 15 minutes past the top of the hour you can see the fountain at Fountain Hills, which is actually pretty spectacular from the air.   It's a landmark you can see from a long way away, but only during the time the pumps are running. 

Basically, if you're VFR it's not hard to get in under the Bravo shelves if you're looking out the window and watching your altimeter.   You do have to plan ahead and not start down too late, but just paying attention gets you there pretty easily.

There are other local tricks, like shooting the gap between the FFZ and IWA class D spaces to get to CHD, or sneaking under the Bravo in the gaps between PHX and FFZ or GYR, that require paying a lot more attention.   Just getting under the Bravo from the E or NE is pretty easy VFR.

Great info, thanks!

[bbakerco]

I'm based at DVT.  Yes, there's a fair bit of student traffic but no worse than any other area airport.  There's a LOT of terrain in the PHX area and no precision approaches (except PHX) which is another good reason to go VFR with flight following.  The Phoenix approach folks are great.  As previously said, the MEA's from ABQ to here are pretty high so without O2, your altitude options are pretty limited in poor weather meaning you'll probably be at icing levels in bad weather.  The winds here this time of year are negligible most days.  The foreflight overlay previously mentioned is helpful if you fly in the area a lot but just coming in and out there's not a lot to worry about.  It's a straight shot into DVT from ABQ and you don't have to dive for the airport as much as SDL. You'll call into the airport on the North Freq of 120.2.  When you call for landing clearance to DVT, request "South parking" and they'll usually accommodate and switch you to 7R/25L and 118.4.  Let me know if you have other questions.

[ragedracer1977]

45 minutes ago, bbakerco said:

I'm based at DVT.  Yes, there's a fair bit of student traffic but no worse than any other area airport.  There's a LOT of terrain in the PHX area and no precision approaches (except PHX) which is another good reason to go VFR with flight following.  The Phoenix approach folks are great.  As previously said, the MEA's from ABQ to here are pretty high so without O2, your altitude options are pretty limited in poor weather meaning you'll probably be at icing levels in bad weather.  The winds here this time of year are negligible most days.  The foreflight overlay previously mentioned is helpful if you fly in the area a lot but just coming in and out there's not a lot to worry about.  It's a straight shot into DVT from ABQ and you don't have to dive for the airport as much as SDL. You'll call into the airport on the North Freq of 120.2.  When you call for landing clearance to DVT, request "South parking" and they'll usually accommodate and switch you to 7R/25L and 118.4.  Let me know if you have other questions.

Gateway has a precision approach too.  

[EricJ]

26 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Gateway has a precision approach too.  

And Casa Grande. 

 

[jlunseth]

On 12/31/2020 at 2:50 PM, KLRDMD said:

I'm guessing you haven't flown "the stack" at TFD?

No need for the OP to go south of PHX. No, I have come in to or departed from the PHX area from west, north, and east but not south. I am not trying to minimize traffic and local conditions, but there are "stacks" everywhere now. They are a function of ground-based approaches going away, so there are fewer VORs and even ILS's than there were several years ago, and there are more student pilots than for several years after the '08 crash wanting to fly them. 

Scottsdale is a little bit of a zoo to leave, by the way. If you are on an IFR flight plan ATC wants you to get to 10 or 12k fairly quickly as I recall, and SDL is around 1,500, so it is a bit of a climb. Best to go VFR to the northeast if you can.

Immelman's route is a pretty good one - VFR, of course, its the route I would take. The highest MEA I see along the V12 is 11k, but if you are VFR then MEA's are not an issue. I like Gary0747's route also, except I would not do the OTO->ABQ leg in your case because you are coming from a more northly direction. No need to go over the Sandias, just go right when you are far enough south of LVS, and stay north of the Sandias until you are somewhere north of ABQ. In the summer, down within about 4, 000 - 6,000 of the surface it can be choppy over western lands because of ground heating, but that is less of a problem in winter. In the summer in Albuquerque you can tell time by looking for the building cumulus, it is daily and into Sept., but not winter.

[EricJ]

On 12/31/2020 at 1:50 PM, KLRDMD said:

I'm guessing you haven't flown "the stack" at TFD?

I spent too much time swirling in that toilet bowl during my IR training that I will not be sad if I never go there again.   There was one point when we were in the middle of it and my CFII lost situational awareness and told me to descend the next step when somebody else was still there.   Fortunately the folks below announced they were stepping down about that time and I stopped sweating...as much.  

56 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

No need for the OP to go south of PHX. No, I have come in to or departed from the PHX area from west, north, and east but not south. I am not trying to minimize traffic and local conditions, but there are "stacks" everywhere now. They are a function of ground-based approaches going away, so there are fewer VORs and even ILS's than there were several years ago, and there are more student pilots than for several years after the '08 crash wanting to fly them. 

The particular stack referred to is not a formal procedure, but a holding and communication methodology worked out by the local flight school community workgroup so that the ILS at Casa Grande can be used more safely as a shared resource.   Since that is the only ILS in the area at an untowered field that is accessible for training, it gets heavily used by all of the local schools.   For the curious, it is documented here, the linked ppt presentation has the details:

https://aftw.org/stanfield-vor-procedures/

Edited January 3, 2021 by EricJ

[Flash]

On 12/30/2020 at 6:30 PM, EricJ said:

If you want to be a serious CB on fuel prices, stop at St John's (SJN) on the way in.

+1 for SJN. Friendly fuel stop.

+1 to the advice to head to Las Vegas, New Mexico, turn just south of there to pass between Albuquerque and Santa Fe and then go direct over St. John's and Show Low. I used to do that route a lot heading from the east coast to LA (although I would pass north of Phoenix).