I stared down Lycoming and they blinked first.

[Nokomis449]

Subtitle: They said my crankshaft was subject to an AD and had to be replaced.  I said it didn't.

History:  Owners prior to me hung a factory reman O-360-A1D on the Mooney M20G in the very early 2000's.  It flew for around 2,500 hours without the case ever being opened.

Recent: I finally decided to have the engine overhauled.  It was still running fine, but a cavalcade of circumstances such as time for annual, desire for EDM900, Penn Yan offering a 10% discount, and a willing banker all made the decision a no brainer.  And if nobody has a brain, it's me.

So off to Penn Yan the engine went.  The case was cracked open for the first time since Lycoming bolted it shut, and the crank went to some shop in the midwest for inspection/overhaul/whatever they do to cranks.  A few weeks after sending the engine, I get a call from Penn Yan.  The shop out west had red-tagged my crank due to it being subject to a life-limiting AD per Lycoming.  Before contacting me, Penn Yan had already discussed the issue with Lycoming to possibly provide me with some relief, since supposedly Lycoming had offered discounts or something to people affected by the AD back when the AD was fresh on the books.  Turns out, Lycoming had to issue the AD twice, since additional cranks were flagged after the initial AD was released.  But since the AD was quite old by now, Lycoming had no interest in helping me in any way shape or form - and if I understood the Penn Yan man correctly over the thud of my jaw hitting the floor, a new Lycoming crankshaft could run around $17,000.  He suggested I contact Lycoming directly.  I wondered what I could accomplish that world-renowned Penn Yan couldn't, and he said it wouldn't hurt.  So first I did some research on the AD.

As it turns out, my crankshaft serial number definitely WAS on the AD list.  But interestingly enough, my engine wasn't.  In reading the AD, compliance is accomplished as follows:  Look at the list of affected engines.  IF your engine is not on the list, you're not affected and go fly.  If your engine IS on the list, then you search the crankcase serial numbers.  If you find your serial number, you get to replace your crank.

A little more research revealed that to my untrained eye, EVERY engine on the AD list utilized a counter-weighted crankshaft.  Not only is the O-360A1D not listed as an affected engine, the O-360A1D does not use a counter-weighted crankshaft.  So with this info, it was time to contact Lycoming.

Lycoming has a special department that ignores investigates these things.  Penn Yan had given me the email address of the head of this department, so I emailed him for further information on my plight, and was there any way Lycoming could help me out (I'd refer to it as a "hat in hand, please please please" letter).  After several days of no response, I called the number of this department and spoke with an underling that worked for the guy I had emailed.  I spoke of my email and my plight, and the underling seemed as perplexed as me as to why my serial number was on the list.  He promised (PROMISED!) he would look further and someone would get back to me in two days (I pressed him for a deadline, as my rebuild was already way over schedule due to this incident).  Well two and three and maybe four days passed with no word.  So I decided to forgo the "please please please" attitude and put on some boxing gloves.  I wrote a second email to Mr. "You're bothering me" at Lycoming and landed a few punches.  Thankfully I CC'd my contact at Penn Yan, just so they'd know I was still working it from my end.  Here's the body of the email:

My engine overhaul has been delayed a week while awaiting a response from you.  I'd like an answer from Lycoming as to how I've been flying behind a crankshaft well beyond a life-limited AD, and how Lycoming did not know they had put it in my engine.  Perhaps it's a question better asked of the FAA, but I'd prefer to hear from Lycoming first.  I need my engine back and it needs a crankshaft, and I need this process to move forward.

As I said, thankfully I CC'd my contact at Penn Yan who apparently got such a kick out of my, let's call it "brashness", that he forwarded it up the chain to the top dawgs at Penn Yan.  The top dawgs at Penn Yan felt inclined to alert the top dawgs at Lycoming, and a day or so later my Penn Yan contact called me to say that Lycoming had decided that my crankshaft was not part of the AD after all.  He also congratulated me on the size of my... let's call it "brashness".  All in all it was nearly a two week delay in the rebuilt, but thankfully Penn Yan had my back throughout.

I'm still waiting for an explanation from Lycoming, or maybe that's a question better asked of the FAA...

[N201MKTurbo]

I’m glad that you got Lycoming to agree that your crank is OK, but ADs are federal law. If it is listed on the AD, I think you need Lycoming to get the AD amended to be totally legal.

[Nokomis449]

The crank still needed to be sent back to the overhaul shop which would add another few weeks to the overhaul schedule.  Penn Yan had an identical crank on the shelf and was gracious enough to swap with me.  

[MikeOH]

I am confused.  If the following you posted is correct, then what does getting anything from Lycoming even matter?

"In readingthe AD, compliance is accomplished as follows:  Look at the list of affected engines.  IF your engine is not on the list, you're not affected and go fly."

If YOUR engine wasn't on the list, it seems you were good to go from the start, and Penn Yan should have known that.  The crank shop, NOT having the engine info, was merely responding to the crank serial number.

Or, am I missing a key point??

[Nokomis449]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

I am confused.  If the following you posted is correct, then what does getting anything from Lycoming even matter?

"In readingthe AD, compliance is accomplished as follows:  Look at the list of affected engines.  IF your engine is not on the list, you're not affected and go fly."

If YOUR engine wasn't on the list, it seems you were good to go from the start, and Penn Yan should have known that.  The crank shop, NOT having the engine info, was merely responding to the crank serial number.

Or, am I missing a key point??

EDIT:  In re-reading your comment, I realize now that I didn't completely answer your question below.  In a nutshell: whether my engine was listed or not, my crankshaft WAS listed and is therefore required to be replaced.  My argument is that the crankshaft in the O-360A1D was not like the other crankshafts in the AD, the fact that the O-360A1D was not listed supports my position, and therefore my crankshaft was erroneously included in the AD.  Only Lycoming knows the reasons why, and they're not talking.

 

You're exactly right, and that's why none of the annual inspections caught the crankshaft AD.  The O-360-A1D engine was not on the AD list, so no one looked further at the crank serial #.   However, once the crank was sent for overhaul in Kansas, the overhaul shop checked the crank serial # against the AD list and there it was.

So if there were no O-360-A1D's listed, how in the world can a crank inside an O-360-A1D be on the list?  My assumption is that my crank's serial # was listed by mistake or by typo, since no O-360-A1D's were affected by the AD.  Compounding Lycoming's position is that they're documented as being the one that installed this crank in the engine.

The crank overhaul shop only had the serial # to go on, and they rightfully flagged it.  Lycoming knew the crank shouldn't be part of the AD, else they would have contacted one of the previous owners (all friends of mine) at the time the AD came out.  I guess it was just too much for them to admit they made a paperwork mistake, and they were willing to let me pay the price.  Or maybe there was a batch of incorrect cranks included, some of which were replaced at great expense to other owners and Lycoming didn't want to open that floodgate of liability.  I can speculate all day, that's why I'd like an explanation from Lycoming.  I'm sure it's much more boring that anything I can conjure up.

Here's a partial engine list including all of the O-360 engines (assuming I pulled the correct AD).  Notice that the O-360-A1D is not listed:

 

[rbridges]

+1 for the little guys.  good job!

[Yetti]

The whole point of the tracking parts is increased safety.  sloppy paperwork by those required to know about safe tracking of parts  is counter to the whole process of trying to induce more safety.

[Guest]

 While the AD doesn’t mention your engine model, your engine did have a crankshaft installed after 1999, although by Lycoming.  Someone should have looked further for your crankshaft serial number long ago.

Clarence

 

[Nokomis449]

Good point @M20Doc, and you certainly know more about this than me.  But I might have pulled the snippet from the wrong AD, and maybe you did too.  The AD cited by the crank overhaul facility is AD 2012-19-01.

Link:  https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/818d35600eaac30f86257a7e00532d53/$FILE/2012-19-01.pdf

  When looking at this AD, I see these words:

...so BOTH the engine needs to be listed by serial number (it's not), AND the crankshaft serial # is in the list (it is).  So in my thinking, since the first part wasn't true (no -A1D's were listed) there was no need to go further.

The next section applies if "an affected crankshaft was installed as a replacement".  My engine never had the crank replaced since factory reman, so again no reason to look further:

And in reference to the -A1D not having a counter-weighted crankshaft, the entry of the AD into the Federal Registry contains this:

link:  https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2006-09-29/html/E6-15958.htm

I'm not well versed in FAA speak, but I don't see where my engine/crankshaft should be part of the AD.  Lycoming had 2 weeks to prove me wrong and didn't.

[MikeOH]

54 minutes ago, Nokomis449 said:

Good point @M20Doc, and you certainly know more about this than me.  But I might have pulled the snippet from the wrong AD, and maybe you did too.  The AD cited by the crank overhaul facility is AD 2012-19-01.

Link:  https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/818d35600eaac30f86257a7e00532d53/$FILE/2012-19-01.pdf

  When looking at this AD, I see these words:

...so BOTH the engine needs to be listed by serial number (it's not), AND the crankshaft serial # is in the list (it is).  So in my thinking, since the first part wasn't true (no -A1D's were listed) there was no need to go further.

The next section applies if "an affected crankshaft was installed as a replacement".  My engine never had the crank replaced since factory reman, so again no reason to look further:

And in reference to the -A1D not having a counter-weighted crankshaft, the entry of the AD into the Federal Registry contains this:

link:  https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2006-09-29/html/E6-15958.htm

I'm not well versed in FAA speak, but I don't see where my engine/crankshaft should be part of the AD.  Lycoming had 2 weeks to prove me wrong and didn't.

^^^^^^ THIS. ^^^^^ was the point I was trying to make in my earlier post.

I don't think there is anything for Lycoming to get back to you on.  It seems to me Penn Yan just needs to agree, and you get to keep your crank!

[Nokomis449]

12 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

^^^^^^ THIS. ^^^^^ was the point I was trying to make in my earlier post.

I don't think there is anything for Lycoming to get back to you on.  It seems to me Penn Yan just needs to agree, and you get to keep your crank!

The AD is against specific crankshafts by serial number.  The cranks listed in the AD are required to be removed from service in accordance with the AD.  After April 11 2006 mine is not allowed to be (re)installed in any engine, including mine:

Penn Yan had no choice but to red tag the crank, because it was specifically listed by serial number in the AD.

I'm not arguing that my crank is good just because they didn't list my engine serial number.  I'm arguing that my crank and any crank like it were never intended to be part of the AD, yet somehow my crank's serial number was included in the list by mistake. 

[Nokomis449]

@MikeOH My comment to m20Doc was in reference to his comment "Someone should have looked further for your crankshaft serial number long ago".  I was defending every A&P that's confirmed AD compliance on my Mooney over the years by pointing out that the way the AD is worded, there was no reason to look beyond the engines listed in the AD. For paragraph 1 in the AD the engine wasn't listed and therefore the AND part of the paragraph wasn't satisfied, and paragraph 2 specifically refers to crankshafts installed after the engine left the factory (which doesn't apply here).

That's a different argument than what you're suggesting.  There's no getting around the fact that my crank is specifically listed in the AD.  I believe it was listed by mistake, and my email to Lycoming was to prod them to prove it was intentional.  Apparently they eventually agreed with me, although they did it by telling Penn Yan instead of me.  But @N201MKTurbo brings up an interesting point - what does it take to get that serial number removed from the AD?  I hope whoever gets it doesn't have the same issue.

[MikeOH]

Yes, I now see that paragraph (h) is where you are boxed in.  Absent getting it removed from the AD, it doesn't look promising.

[RobertGary1]

But Lycoming agreeing with you doesn’t hold any legal weight. If the AD issued by the faa applies to you you’d either need to comply or Lycoming would have to petition the faa to amend the AD. 

[Nokomis449]

As I mentioned in a diatribe above, once Lycoming blinked I was given the option by Penn Yan of REsending my crankshaft to (Oklahoma?) to continue the overhaul, thereby adding a few more weeks to the overhaul timeline, or swapping it out for an equivalent "new tolerances" crank they had on the shelf.  I opted to swap, so I now have a different crank.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Nokomis449 said:

Good point @M20Doc, and you certainly know more about this than me.  But I might have pulled the snippet from the wrong AD, and maybe you did too.  The AD cited by the crank overhaul facility is AD 2012-19-01.

Link:  https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/818d35600eaac30f86257a7e00532d53/$FILE/2012-19-01.pdf

  When looking at this AD, I see these words:

...so BOTH the engine needs to be listed by serial number (it's not), AND the crankshaft serial # is in the list (it is).  So in my thinking, since the first part wasn't true (no -A1D's were listed) there was no need to go further.

The next section applies if "an affected crankshaft was installed as a replacement".  My engine never had the crank replaced since factory reman, so again no reason to look further:

And in reference to the -A1D not having a counter-weighted crankshaft, the entry of the AD into the Federal Registry contains this:

link:  https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2006-09-29/html/E6-15958.htm

I'm not well versed in FAA speak, but I don't see where my engine/crankshaft should be part of the AD.  Lycoming had 2 weeks to prove me wrong and didn't.

This AD throws it in a different light.  Reading it and the SB I see the confusion.

Lycoming seems to have made a mistake in adding your crankshaft to the serial number list in their SB.  When the FAA added the SB to the AD it became law.  Getting it changed by both parties will be a real challenge, having Lycoming provide a different crankshaft is the easiest fix.

Clarence 

 

[JimB]

16 hours ago, Nokomis449 said:

The crank still needed to be sent back to the overhaul shop which would add another few weeks to the overhaul schedule.  Penn Yan had an identical crank on the shelf and was gracious enough to swap with me.  

Its great that Penn Yan stepped up and is supporting you. But I'm not sure what they are going to do with your crankshaft that they swapped you for after it comes back from overhaul or even how the overhaul shop is going to be able to tag it. If the serial number of that crankshaft is listed in the table 5 of that lycoming SB it is pretty much a boat anchor regardless of the model engine it was installed in previously. Unless they can get an AMOC from the FAA. But it's really not your problem if they are swapping crankshafts with you. 

(h) Prohibition Against Installing Certain Crankshafts

After the effective date of this AD, do not install any crankshaft that has a S/N listed in Table 5 of Lycoming MSB No. 569A, dated April 11, 2006, into any engine.

Edited December 26, 2020 by JimB

[rbridges]

Just to be clear, a crankshaft costs $17k?  Holy cow. 

[Nokomis449]

2 minutes ago, rbridges said:

Just to be clear, a crankshaft costs $17k?  Holy cow. 

I'm not sure what number he quoted because the shock and gravity of the situation was setting in and it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.  But I remember it sounded a lot like $17,000.  Here's the current price on Aircraft Spruce (if I picked the correct crankshaft - I searched for "O-360-A1D Crankshaft" but you know how they throw in the kitchen sink on their search result) - Spruce has them drastically marked down from list price of $22,995, so $17k was still under list:

[Hank]

18 minutes ago, rbridges said:

Just to be clear, a crankshaft costs $17k?  Holy cow. 

Super holy cow, that's half the price of a new engine . . . .

[jetdriven]

Not to be a paid factory shill here, but if you go to the factory engine, all those A.D. mandatory replacement crankshaft, and all of the cylinders everything else get tossed out, they don’t charge extra for that. Big-name engine shop overhauls are cheaper, but when you have to replace the crank are you spec for new cylinders and new cam and lifters, often it is more. And you do not get a roller cam with those options . There’s a story of a guy on here who went to aero engines of Winchester, and the case and the crank were bad. And by the time he was done he was in it for $50,000. Now he has a rebuilt used crank repaired case flat tappet engine for that money. Not bad engine per se, But upside down in it for sure. 
Just carefully evaluate the condition of your core, and if you’re going to get slammed for a new case or a new crank or a bunch of other stuff, make sure all that is baked in before you open it up. Because once it opens up at the engine shop, you eat all of it

Edited December 26, 2020 by jetdriven

[N201MKTurbo]

I think this is actually the one you want:

http://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/prodpartsv.asp?catid=3&subcat=97&mfgid=tl&prodid=12006

$6100

[47U]

7 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Lycoming seems to have made a mistake in adding your crankshaft to the serial number list in their SB.  When the FAA added the SB to the AD it became law.  Getting it changed by both parties will be a real challenge, having Lycoming provide a different crankshaft is the easiest fix.

I think the mistake Lycoming made was putting the wrong serial number on the non counterweight crankshaft in the first place.  My -A1D crankshaft serial number starts with an ‘S’.  All the target serial numbers in MSB 569A appear to start with an ‘I’ or ‘V’ (but for a handful without a letter prefix).

Admittedly, I don’t know the serial number assignment process Lycoming uses, but I think Penn Yan should petition Lycoming to issue a new serial number to the crankshaft.  This option doesn’t require changing any MSB or AD verbiage and the OP can keep his original crankshaft, of which he is most familiar with its history.  

[RobertGary1]

5 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Not to be a paid factory shill here, but if you go to the factory engine, all those A.D. mandatory replacement crankshaft, and all of the cylinders everything else get tossed out, they don’t charge extra for that. Big-name engine shop overhauls are cheaper, but when you have to replace the crank are you spec for new cylinders and new cam and lifters, often it is more. And you do not get a roller cam with those options . There’s a story of a guy on here who went to aero engines of Winchester, and the case and the crank were bad. And by the time he was done he was in it for $50,000. Now he has a rebuilt used crank repaired case flat tappet engine for that money. Not bad engine per se, But upside down in it for sure. 
Just carefully evaluate the condition of your core, and if you’re going to get slammed for a new case or a new crank or a bunch of other stuff, make sure all that is baked in before you open it up. Because once it opens up at the engine shop, you eat all of it

That’s what I did. You get an engine with a logbook that says 0 hours. And there is no turn around time. The new engine shows up and you have a couple months to send your old back to them. 

[vorlon1]

6 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Just carefully evaluate the condition of your core, and if you’re going to get slammed for a new case or a new crank or a bunch of other stuff, make sure all that is baked in before you open it up. Because once it opens up at the engine shop, you eat all of it

So how are you--as a pilot owner--to do that without first opening it up; and once you've done that you've shifted the burden of proof.

Seems to me that once you send it out, you are at their mercy...

Like they say, "just asking." Someone help clarify this one for me?