FJC Posted December 24, 2020 Report Share Posted December 24, 2020 Hello Everyone, My planned use is to fly out of SJC and into PSP (probably all year long if I can and likely 15-20 trips a year). Other plans include PSP to SDL and probably SDL to AEG (Southern California to Scottsdale to Albuquerque). Scheduling could be fairly flexible so I dont "have to have" FIKI. The AZ and NM trip would probably would happen 3-5 times a year tops. We'd possibly try out Tahoe and a host of other nice places! The plan is 2 or 3 adults and 2-3 hour legs tops. We'd use O2 when it made sense and especially over mountains. I do know that I have to avoid AC and FIKI together due to useful load needs. My purchase goal would be to find something ready to go with decent and newer avionics (certainly WAAS, redundant AI, etc). I've honed down my list and now am focused on Ovations and Bravos. The Bravo is a slam dunk for high elevation airports and general climb perf but the cost of a near term overhaul scares me and I have not found anything that is >600-700 hours away. The Ovation while not having an inexpensive power plant but it is considerably less than a Bravo does the mission and is probably 80% capable to the Bravos 90% for my needs. Given this info, how useful do you guys thinks that FIKI capability would be? In the winter, bay area marine layer seems to be a frequent occurrence. I would never want to be in IMC for more than 15-20 minutes on either end. Even with the capability of FIKI, I think I'd stay down if thought there was risk of ice. I wonder how often ice is encountered when it was not expected in weather reports? I've done research of experiences and it does not seem like I should not avoid FIKI so long as it is proven to be in good operation and then normally exercising it to keep it in good shape. I'm trying to buy something that would allow for growth down the road and support higher skills/missions etc. There is not a huge premium for FIKI equipped Mooneys and not unwilling to pay for this (will certainly not add it later though) as it seems like there is higher demand at some point when I'd like to sell which could be in 10-15 years. I'm conservative in my approach to most things but it does make sense to get everything I can right now. My trend has always been to buy optioned out cars but is this the same concept? I do know that I dont think I'll have the appetite for another search down the road so I need to obtain a capable platform now which will serve future needs for years to come. Thank you. Thoughts? Freddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 24, 2020 Report Share Posted December 24, 2020 Freddy, Consider re-title... FIKI or not to FIKI, that is the question.... (modernized Hamlet) FIKI has two costs... Dollars required for install... Speed as top speed is a bit lower... (small amount, only noticeable when looking...) UL lowering added maintenance effort If you have the extra dough... go for it... If you love your plane... go for it... If you only use it once or twice each year... save the dough and adjust your flight plan... If it were up to me... Every plane would get... FIKI AC Built in O2 Because I got none, and I’m still wishing I got them and the pair of turbos to go with them... .... and no... not the same as options out cars... that’s the Ovation MSE... these three items don’t make the list because of the side affects of speed and UL... Very few people overload their Tahoe and wish they didn’t have the leather seats and fancy Bose stereo.... I do like your buying strategy... Go Mooney! PP logic only, not a plane sales guy... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryb Posted December 24, 2020 Report Share Posted December 24, 2020 I fly in the same area you do. My typical trip is KRHV to KTRK. Every couple weeks, year round. I flew the trip today. And other trips in the West and coast to coast. I owned a J for 5 years. While owning it, I got tired of cancelling trips because I could not guarantee not touching a cloud below freezing. When I upgraded FIKI was on the top of my list. Now that I have a FIKI Encore, I am very happy with my choice. It allows me to depart when I don't think there is icing but I cannot be 100% sure. It allows me to continue a flight where in my J I would have had to divert. I probably use it 2 to 3 times a year in actual. I probably launch 4 trips a year now that I would not if I did not have FIKI. That does not sound like a lot of trips affected, but it makes a big difference in confidence level in launching a trip. So now days it is more the 100 kt mountain top wind observation and not the icing that makes me cancel. Weather forecasts are not perfect. Freezing level forecasts are not perfect. It is not uncommon to see freezing level a couple thousand feet below forecast. And when that happens, you can be squeezed between MEA and the freezing level. FIKI takes the anxiety out of those scenarios. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted December 24, 2020 Report Share Posted December 24, 2020 SJC-PSP is not really a FIKI problem but as Larryb points out TRK most certainly is a problem (My corporate operation had a daily run between SJC and TRK in the early 80's). I can tell you one night I cleaned both ADF antennas off the bottom of a King Air out of Truckee when the ice finally broke free. Next to Nor Easters in New England, Truckee is some of the worst icing I have ever encountered. I consider a FIKI Mooney with a full tank of TKS fluid a two place airplane. By the time you add bags and IFR reserves you are pretty much at the wall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryb Posted December 24, 2020 Report Share Posted December 24, 2020 Actually I have only used the TKS twice into Truckee. Both cases were descending through a layer of residual clouds after a storm has passed through. Generally I find that when the weather is bad there the mountain top winds are really screaming. It is not uncommon to have 80G100 at the mountain top observation locations. I don't fly in snow storms, don't land on snowy runways. My schedule is flexible, so we just fly before or after the storms. What the TKS does is shrink the window I can't fly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted December 24, 2020 Report Share Posted December 24, 2020 Yeah, I was coming in to KTRK in a Cheyenne 400. Winds were howling over Squaw and I slowed to. Va, but I when I hit the lee side, despite a shoulder harness, the overhead took a gouge out of my scalp, the guy in the back had his knee turn the fold out table into kindling wood. 4 stitches for me. A Mooney wing is a comfort in those conditions. I know of at least two inflight structural breakups on inbounds to Truckee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJC Posted December 27, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 Very good information! Thanks everyone! How tough is it to get in and out of S. Lake Tahoe? Comparable to TRK? Freddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue on Top Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 I’ve asked this elsewhere, but this thread seems to be a better place. Would it be worth it to get the speed back for FIKI owners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 6 minutes ago, Blue on Top said: I’ve asked this elsewhere, but this thread seems to be a better place. Would it be worth it to get the speed back for FIKI owners? At the risk of sounding pedantic, I would restate the question as: “what would you pay to get the speed back?” I would answer, “less than $10,000.” I knew when I bought the plane that it would be 10 knots slower than book, and I accepted that. I fly fairly long legs (my 90% trip is 750 NM), and 10 knots of cruise is maybe 10 mi utes saved on a 3.5 hour trip. 1 KIAS = 1AMU. What would be more valuable to me would be to recover the 90# of useful load claimed by the fully charged system. Since I’m dreaming here, ....plus another 150# of useful load. -dan 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue on Top Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 33 minutes ago, exM20K said: At the risk of sounding pedantic, I would restate the question as: “what would you pay to get the speed back?” I would answer, “less than $10,000.” I knew when I bought the plane that it would be 10 knots slower than book, and I accepted that. I fly fairly long legs (my 90% trip is 750 NM), and 10 knots of cruise is maybe 10 minutes saved on a 3.5 hour trip. 1 KIAS = 1AMU. What would be more valuable to me would be to recover the 90# of useful load claimed by the fully charged system. Since I’m dreaming here, ....plus another 150# of useful load. -dan I had to look up "pedantic". It fits me. I'm working on it. I laughed at the idea of getting 90 lbs. of useful load back. I wish I could do that for you ... and everyone else. I'll be talking to the FAA in the new year on what I can do aerodynamically without putting an airplane in the Experimental category (note:@Petehdgs). Depending on how that is accomplished, it could devalue the airplane a little, a lot or not much at all. Your reply above is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! Others, please feel free to chime in. Thanks, Ron 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 Checking to see if ‘pedantic’ would qualify for MS word of the day... https://www.dictionary.com/browse/pedantic First used in 2008, by Jeff.... Then by a whole bunch of MSers... https://mooneyspace.com/search/?&q=Pedantic&page=2&search_and_or=or&sortby=relevancy PP thoughts only, I had to look it up too.... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue on Top Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 @Petehdgs "Pedantic" is an awesome word. Well over my head. Kudos to you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 Now for the..... Is it worth it case... Often times around here, this question is posed for any and all upgrades... As many answers as there can be.... There are different MSers that believe in a binary... Yes it is.... or no it is not... Forever-planes have a higher portion of owners that can keep one eye closed while looking at the ‘investment’ numbers.... Business plane owners... simply calculate an ROI... and compare to other opportunities... or opportunity lost costs.... Then it becomes a case of... I have 20amu in the airplane budget this year... what am I going to spend it on..? One thing for sure... Just because it is a long body, doesn’t mean there is more discretionary money in the budget for projects... It could be soooo much dough tied up in the LB, it may take years to free up more dough.... The other thing for sure.... Anyone that was adamant about not getting the upgrade because it was too expensive a couple of years ago... may have a change of heart as the other expenses leave the house.... or get paid off.... My constant discussion... can a forever-plane and Long body be used in the same sentence.... Often discussed with turbine powered Mooneys in the same post... And followed up with Forrest Gump’s advice... to buy a fruit company... he bought Apple (aapl) in the ‘94 movie... Somebody named Bob supported his forever-plane with Mr. Gump’s advice... Bob was an engineer... PP thoughts only, stuff I read around here... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue on Top Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 IF I can get the FAA to allow me to aerodynamically modify an airplane for a flight without having to put it in the Experimental category, a willing donor airplane owner in the area and a day of temporary modification work, I could have a good answer. It might be possible now that I am back in Wichita and know a lot of FAA ACO, MIDO and FISDO personnel. Just sayin'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 Flown all over the world in all types of planes. The heaviest ice I ever picked up was a departure out of VNY in a Lear 35 heading to LAS....over the DAG area... The only other memorable icing situation was taking off out of Belgium in a Cessan 210 heading to southern France. Picked up over an inch and lost my vacuum pump with no ADI/HSI backup in the clouds....fun times.... point of the post....dont mess with ice especially in so cal......... 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 (edited) FWIW, I just went out and flew a three-leg GPS Track-and-Speed test. Crunched the numbers and confirmed that my TN is exactly 10 KTAS slower than book at 10.5. Also confirmed that the G1000 TAS display is 1.5 KTAS too slow, per the POH. This is the worksheet I use https://www.ntps.edu/images/stories/documents/GPS_PEC.xlsx more background towards the bottom of the page here https://www.ntps.edu/information/downloads.html -dan Edited December 27, 2020 by exM20K 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 17 hours ago, FJC said: Very good information! Thanks everyone! How tough is it to get in and out of S. Lake Tahoe? Comparable to TRK? Freddy Depends on the winds. IF you have to depart South, you have to usually do the "Golf Course Climb Out" where you shuttle climb over the golf course. I'll take a pretty significant tail wind to avoid that, but sometimes the numbers don't work. You basically have to land south, takeoff north. When landing south, pre plan the go around carefully. You should have several plans for go around at different points because at several points you have hills you cannot out climb in landing configuration or. accelerating there from. If it all goes to poop, go around straight ahead and climb over the golf course. If you decide to fly the IFR approach check your missed approach climb gradient. KTRK IMHO is a little easier because you got 4 pretty good runways to choose from. It sits down in a bowl, but a big enough one that you can shuttle climb. The instrument approach into KTRK is a little wild because you have cumulus granite on both sides as you let down and the FAF on the RNAV 20 only has 1100 feet ground clearance due to a hill. Make sure you pay attention to cold weather altitude corrections as required as well as circling limitations. If you have not been up there you might want to engage an instructor for a "High Altitude Checkout". I think Don Kaye lives near you. Might give him a call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmo Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 Thing is, people say that a TKS install done properly, where everything fits well and done right, it doesn't cause a significant speed loss; see this post on EuroGA for reference. The amount of work that went into that install is chronicled in the linked thread, it wasn't "plug and play". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 16 hours ago, Blue on Top said: IF I can get the FAA to allow me to aerodynamically modify an airplane for a flight without having to put it in the Experimental category, a willing donor airplane owner in the area and a day of temporary modification work, I could have a good answer. It might be possible now that I am back in Wichita and know a lot of FAA ACO, MIDO and FISDO personnel. Just sayin'. Get with Scott Sellmeyer, the 2 of you can get stiffies over the aero curves together 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 Either look for a TKS Encore, or a TKS Eagle. FIKI is icing on the cake. If you plan to fly with 3 people consistently, you'll need the useful load, and if you're dealing with icing, that means your are flying IFR which means IFR fuel reserves, which means again useful load. I doubt a bravo with TKS will have the useful load you need to fly 3 hours with 3 people and bags. If you can't find that, TKS V35, F33A, or A36 will work as well. An SR22 will as well, however at a considerably higher price tag. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue on Top Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, exM20K said: FWIW, I just went out and flew a three-leg GPS Track-and-Speed test. Crunched the numbers and confirmed that my TN is exactly 10 KTAS slower than book at 10.5. @exM20K Thanks for the great info! Will a stock airplane (without TKS) meet the POH numbers? @mike_elliott 10AMU per airplane does excite me Edited December 27, 2020 by Blue on Top 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted December 28, 2020 Report Share Posted December 28, 2020 3 hours ago, Blue on Top said: 4 hours ago, exM20K said: 10.5. @exM20K Thanks for the great info! Will a stock airplane (without TKS) meet the POH numbers? Probably a question better answered by Ovation pilots. I don’t think there are many non FIKI acclaims. Mike E can answer. He has flown one or 2. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted December 28, 2020 Report Share Posted December 28, 2020 22 hours ago, Blue on Top said: I’ve asked this elsewhere, but this thread seems to be a better place. Would it be worth it to get the speed back for FIKI owners? What are you planning on tinkering with yo improve the situation? E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted December 28, 2020 Report Share Posted December 28, 2020 3 hours ago, Niko182 said: Either look for a TKS Encore, or a TKS Eagle. FIKI is icing on the cake. If you plan to fly with 3 people consistently, you'll need the useful load, and if you're dealing with icing, that means your are flying IFR which means IFR fuel reserves, which means again useful load. I doubt a bravo with TKS will have the useful load you need to fly 3 hours with 3 people and bags. If you can't find that, TKS V35, F33A, or A36 will work as well. An SR22 will as well, however at a considerably higher price tag. That’s an issue I’ve found with the Bravo’s- useful load isn’t always what I’d want it to be, if it has TKS. in my TKS’d Missile, I’m constantly running up against max useful load when I’ve got my wife, kids and dog aboard... and that’s with a max gross over 1000lbs usable. I don’t think we could legally make the trips we currently make in a Bravo (not that the aircraft couldn’t handle it- just that it’s not legal). I have yet to find a Bravo that has the same max gross weight as my missile, or an ovation... or a modded encore... and the speed difference vs fuel burn doesn’t make up the difference. (175KTAS at 10K ~12gph vs 220KTAS at 20K ~20+ gph). I think you’re right though- the modified encore is probably the best all around mooney out there for speed, capability, useful load... that one Parker had another it 5-7 years ago was pretty amazing: what was the useful load on that- 1150lbs? Solid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue on Top Posted December 28, 2020 Report Share Posted December 28, 2020 20 minutes ago, aviatoreb said: What are you planning on tinkering with yo improve the situation? E I'm an aerodynamicist. I can eliminate drag in many areas ... to a point. I'm waiting for a comment (or two) from @mike_elliott 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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