gsxrpilot Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Hank said: @gsxrpilot should have some Tejas recommendations, complete with names, airport codes and PIREPs, in addition to the Maxwells at KGGG. Sorry I'm late to the party here. And @Parker_Woodruff beat me to it. But he is absolutely correct. There are two shops in Texas that are true Mooney specialists. And even more importantly are run by people who are straight shooters and honest to a fault. Did I mention they know Mooneys better than most other shops in the whole country? If you check FlightAware you'll find Mooneys flying right over your house on their way to either KGGG (Maxwell) or 84R (SWAT). Mooneys fly from much further than West Texas to get to these shops. Oh, BTW, I'm based in Denver and my M20K is at SWTA in Smithville, TX right now. It's worth the flight, as you might have already discovered. I've personally taken my Mooneys to both Maxwell at KGGG and to JD and Laura at SWTA at 84R. I've also taken my plane to other shops much closer to me here in Denver. But if it's anything more than an oil change, I'll likely save money by flying to one of these shops in Texas. Whether its just knowing what's required and what's not, what's important and what's not, how to find the issue quickly because they've done it a hundred times on Mooneys, or just not taking financial advantage of my ignorance. It will be cheaper to fly to one of these shops and get it done right. But having the right shop maintaining your bird is much more than just a cost saving situation. It might save your life or the life of your loved ones. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 SWTA is just up the road in Smithville. Just picking more things. My A&P made me do the ADs as homework it was a good experience that every owner should do. Learning to do an oil change will give you time to inspect the engine compartment. Which an exhaust leak is pretty easy to see especially with melted stuff near by. the general convention is just to replace the prop governor when they go bad. So no harm no foul there. And lastly you now have a bird that you can trust and should have a pretty good dispatch. Oh and the purchase price is the cheap part. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, Yetti said: Oh and the purchase price is the cheap part. Truth! Always. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Coffee, bare with me... my approach may be a bit rough... I have writing challenges... looks like you have taken a pretty hands off approach... Unless you are getting your information from somewhere other than MS... You haven’t asked any questions... I reviewed your posts for the last two years... it didn’t take any time... A dozen newbies a year ask basic questions about buying a plane... From what plane matches their mission... To where to look... What a PPI is... who should do I it... what order it should be done in... what are the big problems... Who shouldn’t do it... Convenience isn’t any part of a PPI... The PPI is protection for your wallet... how much you pay is up to you... there are no standards... What an OH is... what are the options... who has been used around here... what to look out for... now... You have two independent sets of instruments... they tell different stories... instead of finding out why... you chose to use the non-primary instruments, and ignore the primary ships gauge... this is faulty logic... You seem to be confused about what maintenance is required for your plane... how to get proper maintenance for your plane... And... when somebody recommends a place to go to get things straightened out in TX.... you start in with how big TX is... Really we all fly planes built in TX... there is one thing we all know... how big TX is... and how far away DMax is from everyone’s home drome... Around here... there is a recent story of an M20K landing engine out on a golf course... the engine overhauler seems to be the responsible party for that one... Compare your engine overhauler to theirs... you might be sharing the same stroke of luck... As far as getting a lawyer goes... that might be a good idea... Work on getting your facts and data organized... expect if you take the same hands off approach you will have a similar experience there as well.... Keep in mind you are the pilot in command of your ship... the hands off approach hasn’t worked very well so far... Grab the bull by the horns and make things happen... Start with a plan... with a list of what you want to get done... prioritize the list... get input... Ask questions! use the search function, Get your expectations tuned up... An M20K is a highly engineered machine with book values you can compare to... if your ship doesn’t meet book values... Do you want to fly it..? There is a YouTube video of an M20K with known performance issues... the pilot that knew these issues ran out of luck in front of a video camera... I never heard of and engine being OH’d to lower specs... and that being an acceptable reason to not meet book values... Pick any of your mis-steps... Search MS... can you find where somebody gave some advice you could have used to do something differently..? At least once each year... somebody will buy a terrible plane (much worse than the one we are discussing here)and after the fact they join MS and find dozens of great ideas... When people want to know about props... MS has a prop guy... if they want to know about engine challenges... MS has a Savvy guy... If you want to know how to fly your plane... MS has a few CFIIs that fly M20Ks... If you hired an M20K pilot to fly this plane to the PPI... that probably would have been helpful for your decision making, early on... So... what was it you wanted to do next..? What did I miss or miss-understand? PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or plane sales guy... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 And just in case you're wondering, @CoffeeCan, yes, @carusoam really does dream in bullet points 1 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 3 hours ago, CoffeeCan said: Ken, have you looked at a map of Texas? Yes, I'm in TX, but I'm farther from Don than you are from San Diego... People take their airplanes to Don Maxwell from Arizona on a regular basis. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Another interesting point to consider... There is a proper method for pandering for a ride... You may see a few posts around here with a title like...”need a lift to... on these dates... anyone going that way?” It turns out, every year somebody needs to drop a plane off for annual, or get it picked up again... A few MSers working together can cover each other’s needs... I once had DMax pick up a plane in the San Antonio area and fly it to his shop... a cool way to have a Mooney expert test-fly the plane and go through all of its systems.... followed by a full PPI, that ended in an annual inspection... Most likely ideas I learned about on MS... Best regards, -a- 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, KLRDMD said: People take their airplanes to Don Maxwell from Arizona on a regular basis. If things align just right, you find an AZ plane for @KLRDMDto look at first, then when he gives you the thumbs up, you have the seller fly it to Maxwell for Pre-purchase/annual. Then you send the money and view the plane in person for the first time when you now own it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, jaylw314 said: And just in case you're wondering, @CoffeeCan, yes, @carusoam really does dream in bullet points There are no bullets in either of Anthony's two last posts. He thinks both broadly and deeply Everything is short and pithy, suitble for bullet points The length of his posts lend themselves to bullets rather than paragraphs My own lengthy posts are much more verbose and book-like Pay attention to his many snippets, they have good information in them You may not notice the missing bullets . . . . Edited December 9, 2020 by Hank 2 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlunseth Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Not a happy story. I have two thoughts for you. One is on weighing the aircraft. When equipment is added to the aircraft the installer/avionics shop is supposed to update the weight and balance, subtracting anything that was moved at their arms and adding the new at those arms. You might want to check your POH, typically the update will appear there, in the weight and balance section. Weighing the aircraft is frankly not a good idea unless equipment was added illegally, without modifying the w&b in the POH. Second there is a great app called AircraftStatusSheet. It is available from The Mooney Flyer http://themooneyflyer.com/Excel/AircraftStatusSheet.xlsx . If I recall correctly there is an instruction or “how to use” sheet that comes with it. It allows you to track in some detail the status of maintenance of your aircraft and its systems. Among other things, there is an O2 section for tracking the time to hydrostat the tanks depending on the type of tank. I would suggest you find it, load it, and use it. Even the best of mechanics don’t catch everything and they don’t live with the airplane, you do. You are the person who gets to deal with in air emergencies if a critical system fails, so it would be a very good idea for you to track maintenance items yourself. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeCan Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 8 hours ago, jlunseth said: Second there is a great app called AircraftStatusSheet. It is available from The Mooney Flyer http://themooneyflyer.com/Excel/AircraftStatusSheet.xlsx . If I recall correctly there is an instruction or “how to use” sheet that comes with it. It allows you to track in some detail the status of maintenance of your aircraft and its systems. Among other things, there is an O2 section for tracking the time to hydrostat the tanks depending on the type of tank. I would suggest you find it, load it, and use it. Even the best of mechanics don’t catch everything and they don’t live with the airplane, you do. You are the person who gets to deal with in air emergencies of a critical system fails, so it would be a very good idea for you to track maintenance items yourself. Thanks for the tip. I will be looking into it today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
211º Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 @CoffeeCan, Thanks for posting your story. Comments on this site can sometimes frequently be brutal. But by posting your story, you are helping many, many owners that aren't commenting and that are learning from your experience. On a different note, @gsxrpilot's post made me think/ponder the idea of flying my Mooney to one of the recommended shops for an annual every (say) two years for a thorough (good) annual by a trustworthy, recommended Mooney shop. Finally, @CoffeeCan, spending the dollars isn't fun... but how great is it now to have your airplane where you want it?!! It is kind of like the opposite of "engine-auto-roughness" right when you being a flight over water. I bet your bird now just feels, sounds, and flies better with so many things addressed. Fly early, fly often. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeCan Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 11 hours ago, carusoam said: Coffee, bare with me... my approach may be a bit rough... I have writing challenges... looks like you have taken a pretty hands off approach... Unless you are getting your information from somewhere other than MS... You haven’t asked any questions... I reviewed your posts for the last two years... it didn’t take any time... A dozen newbies a year ask basic questions about buying a plane... From what plane matches their mission... To where to look... What a PPI is... who should do I it... what order it should be done in... what are the big problems... Who shouldn’t do it... Convenience isn’t any part of a PPI... The PPI is protection for your wallet... how much you pay is up to you... there are no standards... What an OH is... what are the options... who has been used around here... what to look out for... now... You have two independent sets of instruments... they tell different stories... instead of finding out why... you chose to use the non-primary instruments, and ignore the primary ships gauge... this is faulty logic... You seem to be confused about what maintenance is required for your plane... how to get proper maintenance for your plane... And... when somebody recommends a place to go to get things straightened out in TX.... you start in with how big TX is... Really we all fly planes built in TX... there is one thing we all know... how big TX is... and how far away DMax is from everyone’s home drome... Around here... there is a recent story of an M20K landing engine out on a golf course... the engine overhauler seems to be the responsible party for that one... Compare your engine overhauler to theirs... you might be sharing the same stroke of luck... As far as getting a lawyer goes... that might be a good idea... Work on getting your facts and data organized... expect if you take the same hands off approach you will have a similar experience there as well.... Keep in mind you are the pilot in command of your ship... the hands off approach hasn’t worked very well so far... Grab the bull by the horns and make things happen... Start with a plan... with a list of what you want to get done... prioritize the list... get input... Ask questions! use the search function, Get your expectations tuned up... An M20K is a highly engineered machine with book values you can compare to... if your ship doesn’t meet book values... Do you want to fly it..? There is a YouTube video of an M20K with known performance issues... the pilot that knew these issues ran out of luck in front of a video camera... I never heard of and engine being OH’d to lower specs... and that being an acceptable reason to not meet book values... Pick any of your mis-steps... Search MS... can you find where somebody gave some advice you could have used to do something differently..? At least once each year... somebody will buy a terrible plane (much worse than the one we are discussing here)and after the fact they join MS and find dozens of great ideas... When people want to know about props... MS has a prop guy... if they want to know about engine challenges... MS has a Savvy guy... If you want to know how to fly your plane... MS has a few CFIIs that fly M20Ks... If you hired an M20K pilot to fly this plane to the PPI... that probably would have been helpful for your decision making, early on... So... what was it you wanted to do next..? What did I miss or miss-understand? PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or plane sales guy... Best regards, -a- Yes, your style is a bit rough, but the content is clear enough. You’ve made a lot of assumptions that I don’t think it’s worthwhile to correct. Carry on. Let me preface my reply by saying you didn’t find a lot of questions from me here in MS because I tend to read and search rather than ask a question that has been hashed over every couple of weeks. Then I ask questions directly from persons who appears to have knowledge rather than throwing it out into an open forum where the advice may run from reliable and accurate to widely divergent opinions, some of which may be quite wrong. My approach has been far from “hands-off”... I’ve got my hands plenty dirty with this airplane. (Forgive me if I haven’t boasted sufficiently about what an awesome mechanic I am.) I was in the shop for several hours during the prebuy inspection and got grease on my hands and clothes and asked questions. I spent a lot of time talking to Mooney pilots and the A&P who did my first annual about my questions. I did NOT assume it was safe to continue with the airplane with the instrument issues in question, but because the mechanic in question was and is highly respected by other Mooney pilots, I took the airplane back to him several times to address the specific issues. I went to a different shop for THIS annual after asking around in my local aviation community and getting good recommendations for them. So, yeah, in hindsight it would have been a great idea to get a Mooney guy to fly my airplane to GGG for Don to do the prebuy. It would have been a great idea to take my bird to one of the premiere Mooney shops after my engine instrument questions/concerns were not addressed by my first A&P. But great hindsight and $1.79 will get me a cup of coffee at Stripes and not much more. So, what do I want to do next, you ask? Well, for one thing I want to find a new A&P I can trust for ongoing work. Since the consensus seems to be to fly to GGG, and now that my experiences over the past 2 years have convinced me I simply can’t trust a shop that isn’t a Mooney specialist any more, it looks like I’ll be working with Don Maxwell. (And yes, I’ll post on this forum to see if I can hitch a ride with a fellow Mooney pilot... that’s a great resource I hadn’t thought of.) I’m also thinking of subscribing to Savvy’s maintenance program. Mike Busch’s books and webinars are great, and I’ve only just learned that his company offers this service. Looks like a good investment... any opinions on that here? As I said earlier, I appreciate the responses from all y’all, rough and otherwise. I ain’t proud, and I ain’t fragile, and I’m always learning. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeCan Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, 211º said: @CoffeeCan, Thanks for posting your story. Comments on this site can sometimes frequently be brutal. But by posting your story, you are helping many, many owners that aren't commenting and that are learning from your experience. On a different note, @gsxrpilot's post made me think/ponder the idea of flying my Mooney to one of the recommended shops for an annual every (say) two years for a thorough (good) annual by a trustworthy, recommended Mooney shop. Finally, @CoffeeCan, spending the dollars isn't fun... but how great is it now to have your airplane where you want it?!! It is kind of like the opposite of "engine-auto-roughness" right when you being a flight over water. I bet your bird now just feels, sounds, and flies better with so many things addressed. Fly early, fly often. Thanks for the reply. I’m not one who enjoys exposing his mistakes in public. But this experience was sufficiently disconcerting I felt I owed it to the Mooney owner-pilot community to share, in hope that my lesson can help someone else. Brusque comments are to be expected in such circumstances, but I figure it’s worth taking the lumps to shed some light that may save others some trouble. We seem to be on the same page. I like your “fly often” comment. I do. I’ve put almost 400 hours on my 231 since I bought her 2-1/2 years ago, including 20+ hours of dual-received time with Mooney-wise CFI’s. Having her run like a too now puts joy in my heart. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 9 hours ago, jlunseth said: Not a happy story. I have two thoughts for you. One is on weighing the aircraft. When equipment is added to the aircraft the installer/avionics shop is supposed to update the weight and balance, subtracting anything that was moved at their arms and adding the new at those arms. You might want to check your POH, typically the update will appear there, in the weight and balance section. Weighing the aircraft is frankly not a good idea unless equipment was added illegally, without modifying the w&b in the POH. W&B is one thing. Equipment list also needs to be updated. The Equipment List is semi different than the Operations Manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, CoffeeCan said: Having her run like a too now puts joy in my heart. Good, your life depends on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 The one thing this experience sets out is that the FAA still puts all this responsible for an airworthy airplane on the owner. None of the people working on the plane have that responsibility per the FAA. I always wonder how people who are just handing over a check to the maintainer can accomplish that without the extensive knowledge some owners have because they are mechanically inclined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeCan Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 35 minutes ago, mike_elliott said: Good, your life depends on it. Really?!? I had never thought of that. (where’s the sarcasm font button here on MS?) 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, CoffeeCan said: Really?!? I had never thought of that. (where’s the sarcasm font button here on MS?) yea i didnt mean to sound like this wasnt primary in your thinking, but truly glad it is. I still hurt from an engine trying to take me out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeCan Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 30 minutes ago, Yetti said: The one thing this experience sets out is that the FAA still puts all this responsible for an airworthy airplane on the owner. None of the people working on the plane have that responsibility per the FAA. I always wonder how people who are just handing over a check to the maintainer can accomplish that without the extensive knowledge some owners have because they are mechanically inclined. Absolutely right, on the first part. You (or me) as owner-operator are ultimately responsible for the condition and airworthiness of the aircraft. As for mechanical inclination, this ain’t my first rodeo. It ain’t even my first airplane. And it doesn’t amount to a tinker’s damn that I can tear down a small block Chevy V8 and rebuild it better than it came to me, when it comes to airplanes. Aptitude and inclination is only a small part of the equation here. Could I be more knowledgeable about my aircraft’s systems? Hell, yes. Working on it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AH-1 Cobra Pilot Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Before my Mooney, I owned a C-152. I had the annuals performed by a mechanic my dad and I have been using for 30-40 years. Those annuals were great; took about 3 days and cost $600. He did the pre-buy for the Mooney, and let me know both the good and bad about it. He had already retired from regular maintenance, though, so I had to find a new venue for the first Mooney annual 5 years ago. Imagine how I almost shit my pants when I got the $20,000 estimate! I worked it down to just short of $11,000, and it included some things that most people would never notice, such as the labels on the seat belts had worn off. Who knew that the seat belts were defunct without them? Lots of other silly, little things, such as decals, plus a few more important items that could possibly have lasted, such as flexible engine baffling, that added up quickly. The lesson was that the shop was just a few doors down from the local FSDO, so they are ridiculously thorough. (Does anybody really believe I would have better survived a crash because my seat belts had the labels intact?) For the last two annuals, I have used a shop at a nearby airport, run by a maintenance sergeant I knew in the ARNG. During the last annual, he called me, apologizing profusely for not catching it last year, that the prop had been installed, (long before I bought the airplane), 180o off! He noticed that while working on a leaking prop governor, so the proximity, no doubt, had much to do with it being found. There is an old adage that what the boss inspects is what gets done. All mechanics operate to some degree by that principle, so the only way to cover EVERYTHING is to have more mechanics work on your plane. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Some have mentioned W. Tx. but he’s in Corpus Christi, I was getting worried I forgot where CC was..... KCRP > 84R (Smithville) 136nm KCRP > KGGG (Longview) 312nm Either one should be a cakewalk in a “K” @CoffeeCan I’ve sent you a private message 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 While I appreciate everyone's assurance's that a well known MSC is the cure-all for everything maintenance related on a Mooney, I'm here to tell you that isn't true. Isn't there a thread around here with a Mooney being air lifted off a mountain top after a mag failure accomplished by a well known MSC? I can personally tell you that a MSC (with an almost God-like status on this forum) performed work on my aircraft about 15-20 years ago and missed performing the engine mount AD inspection every inspection for 3-4 years... My only point is that you are not assured a great maintenance experience (at any price) just because it's a Mooney Service Center. Just do your research and work with your maintainer. Curious...this post has been removed...https://mooneyspace.com/topic/32690-how-to-helicopter-a-mooney/page/1/ 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeCan Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, RLCarter said: Some have mentioned W. Tx. but he’s in Corpus Christi, I was getting worried I forgot where CC was..... KCRP > 84R (Smithville) 136nm KCRP > KGGG (Longview) 312nm Either one should be a cakewalk in a “K” @CoffeeCan I’ve sent you a private message RL, I moved from Corpus to KABI a few months ago, neglected to change my profile. My bad. So, yeah, GGG is a cakewalk in my K... but it’s the long walk by shanks pony back home I balk at... Edited December 9, 2020 by CoffeeCan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeCan Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, JimB said: While I appreciate everyone's assurance's that a well known MSC is the cure-all for everything maintenance related on a Mooney, I'm here to tell you that isn't true. Isn't there a thread around here with a Mooney being air lifted off a mountain top after a mag failure accomplished by a well known MSC? I can personally tell you that a MSC (with an almost God-like status on this forum) performed work on my aircraft about 15-20 years ago and missed performing the engine mount AD inspection every inspection for 3-4 years... My only point is that you are not assured a great maintenance experience (at any price) just because it's a Mooney Service Center. Just do your research and work with your maintainer. Curious...this post has been removed...https://mooneyspace.com/topic/32690-how-to-helicopter-a-mooney/page/1/ Jim, thanks for the comment. There is no doubt in my mind that a MSC is not infallible. Which is why I’ve talked to SavvyMX about subscribing. I want more than one pair of A&P eyes on my airplane from now on. But I will be using a MSC for the main work moving forward nonetheless. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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