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Adding FIKI to a regular ovation


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You could judge this very easily based on what you see in accumulation on the approach. If it is building rapidly wait as long as you can to slow down.

If is is "normal" accumulation or slight, you can slow down sooner. 

I would consider the icing in the pictures above if only 10 minutes exposure as severe but also a testament to the ability of the TKS to do its job. 

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Yes, very nice to have.  This accumulated in about 10 minutes during my approach yesterday.  

Find one already with FIKI since that only adds a fraction of the value on a used airplane according to Vref. Adding it after you buy the airplane would hardly ever make economic sense.

Had another opportunity today...flew in this morning on the RNAV and kept speed above 120 knots this time using the LNAV all the way to the FAF with gear down/no flaps, then broke out shortly thereaft

Posted Images

As soon as you pop out and know landing is assured, if the wings are clean you aren't in icing anymore.  Hit the speed brakes, slow down to flap speed, get the flaps out.  A no flap landing at 120 knots over the fence would need space shuttle like distances.

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1 hour ago, apenney said:

Question to everyone: At what point on final would you slow from 120knots - the MAP or DA?  Can't use speed brakes in icing, might be hard to bleed speed on a shorter runway.  I suppose with the gear down at that speed, pulling throttle probably results in a pretty fast enough deceleration even in the Mooney.  I'm never at 120knots at the DA or MAP so I've never tried it.

Fortunately, ILS runways are long.  Even breaking out at mins, you have 30ish seconds to slow down, and that's actually a long time.  LPV -  served runways can be as short as 3200' IIRC, which doesn't leave a lot of excess for floating.

Problems:

1) limited to approach flaps if you have been in icing conditions.  I don't have the POH wording in front of me, but that's the gist.

2) ambiguity about whether or not approach flaps may be deployed above the white arc.  I've heard both ways from authorities I respect.

3) speed brakes are, IMHO, a really bad idea to pop near the runway.

So... what I try to do for a low IMC Icing approach is:

  • Fly the ILS down to VMC  (or mins, obviously) at 120KIAS or greater no flaps/gear down
  • Once visual, power to idle and approach flaps
  • keep the nose coming up until 86 KIAS over the runway.  This may consume a lot of runway, but that's ok (usually).
  • hope there's cold beer in the hangar or home

I've done this only a handful of times in icing conditions, which is why I need to practice it more.  

Non-precision approaches get a lot more sporty, but the VPATH is helpful in not having to make massive power changes at a stepdown or level off.

 

Things I need to practice:

  1. landing after carrying 120 KIAS and gear down no flaps to 200AGL
  2. doing same at night...

-dan

 

Edited by exM20K
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Speed brakes shouldn't be used in icing conditions, FIKI or not. I have had 1 of the 2 freeze in the down position descending into North vegas out of 12 thousand feet with an OAT of -12c and no visible moisture,  100+ mile visibility. The pull to the side because of the asymmetrical drag wasn't hard, but it was shocking and I wouldn't like it if I were in or near IFR conditions. Having 1 or both speed brakes stuck in the up position when you miss the runway would add to already a handful of a situation, especially if you just got out of icing and happen to be going back into the icing because of the missed approach.

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Had another opportunity today...flew in this morning on the RNAV and kept speed above 120 knots this time using the LNAV all the way to the FAF with gear down/no flaps, then broke out shortly thereafter and slowed down for an uneventful landing with half flaps.  Less ice accumulation for sure (maybe just today's conditions).  Those LED lights on the leading edge are too cold though.  I wish they were non-LED on days like this.

image.thumb.png.e88f3547c8e59d2972d6fa6039e689da.pngimage.thumb.png.e81aacdc2a121ffb68eff14d8a65de58.png

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On 12/7/2020 at 11:45 PM, carusoam said:

Scott is our resident weather guy.

 

My advice for approaches or landings with ice accretion is to avoid anything that might change the angle of attack significantly.  So, I avoid adding flaps and I avoid rapid airspeed changes...if you need to slow down, for example, pull back the throttle deliberately, but slowly.  And if you start experiencing any sloppy feeling in the controls or feel any buffeting that is not characteristic of normal flight, then add power back.    

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Anybody know why the AFM supplement for the tks FIKI system, in Section IV and Section V, says to "Use FULL FLAP landing distance from SECTION V of POH/AFM"

I can certainly understand the requirement for no more than partial flaps, and for increased approach speed; but I would think the landing distance would be more than the published.  

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Welcome aboard ron!

Expect some context to be needed for the interpretation...

Let me bring an Ovation owner that has the TKS system to the conversation...

@StevenL757 (landing distance with TKS system question)

After that, we can invite the TKS guy to supply the context...

Best regards,

-a-

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18 hours ago, ronr said:

Anybody know why the AFM supplement for the tks FIKI system, in Section IV and Section V, says to "Use FULL FLAP landing distance from SECTION V of POH/AFM"

I can certainly understand the requirement for no more than partial flaps, and for increased approach speed; but I would think the landing distance would be more than the published.  

 

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard ron!

Expect some context to be needed for the interpretation...

Let me bring an Ovation owner that has the TKS system to the conversation...

@StevenL757 (landing distance with TKS system question)

After that, we can invite the TKS guy to supply the context...

Best regards,

-a-

Agree, and speaking for the Ovation, I’d need to re-read that section.  Generally-speaking, Ron is correct; in that a lesser-than-full flap setting would result in a greater landing distance...especially if the airframe is carrying any amount of ice sufficient to reduce lift.

I’m on a 3-day trip and can’t access my AFM, so if someone can post the section of the AFM that discusses this, it would help formulate a better answer.

Steve

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Steve and Carusoam,

Thanks for chiming in.

It is mentioned in both the Normal Procedures and Performance sections: ( ref: FIKI TKS AFM supplement)

(Oh, and I'm ignoring what would seem to be a typo regarding the +30°C)

 

AFM Section IV Normal Procedures:

FINAL APPROACH

With residual ice on air frame:
1. Maximum flap Deflection . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . TAKE OFF Setting
. . . . . . . . . When aircraft has encountered icing conditions (See SECTION II - LIMITATIONS)
 

3. Use FULL FLAP landing distance from SECTION V of POH/AFM.
Airspeed Take off Flap Setting (M20M, M20R, M20U)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . FULL FLAP approach speed plus 5 KIAS

 

AFM Section V Performance

Landing

When the aircraft has encountered icing conditions, flap deflection is limited to take off setting as
A MAXIMUM. An icing condition is defined as visually observing ice accumulation or flight in temperatures
at or below +30°
C when any type of visible moisture is present.

 

The M20M,M20R, M20U use FULL FLAP landing distance from SECTION V of the Pilot’s Operating
Handbook and FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual for landing with TAKE OFF FLAPS. 

For TAKE OFF FLAPS landing approach speed, use the approach speed listed for FULL FLAP
landing plus (+) 5 KIAS.

Edited by ronr
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The landing distance guidance is puzzling.  There is no partial-flap landing performance published for the TN, but this makes no sense to me.

rule of thumb is 100' per excess knot of airspeed, but i'm not landing on a short runway with or with the possibility of ice on the plane.

-dan

Edited by exM20K
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Dan,

FWIW, in a separate paragraph that I did not quote, for the FIKI certified TN and V, the AFM supplement calls for carrying +7 KIAS, TO flaps, & increase the landing distance by 40%.

That makes a lot more sense to me than the information for the M, R and U models.

Edited by ronr
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The protected surfaces look pretty clean to me and typical of how the system has worked for me.

Moderate    The rate of accumulation is such that even short encounters become potentially hazardous and use of deicing/anti-icing equipment or diversion is necessary.

Severe    The rate of accumulation is such that deicing/anti-icing equipment fails to reduce or control the hazard. Immediate diversion is necessary.

These definitions are "official," and I think they are not great.  "Severe" in a piston single or twin may be "Trace" on a turbojet with hot wings, ram air rise, and tons of climb.

Icing becomes severe if my system poops the bed.  It's all subjective.

-dan

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On 12/4/2020 at 10:19 PM, carusoam said:

Nice to haves...

  • WAAS GPS...
  • FIKI
  • Installed O2
  • A/C
  • and or 1k UL

 Come on over to the O’club..!

:)

-a-

Curious...how useful is A/C given the mandates?

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4 minutes ago, V1VRV2 said:

Which mandates? Not to be used for takeoff?

Yes...or for taxiing. My use case is hot areas where I thought it would be great to taxi and be cool till higher alt where it is cooler. Wondering whether measuring CO would be good risk mitigation?

Edited by FJC
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This is a murky area for me. I looked at an O a few moths ago to purchase that was placarded “Only for Use in Cruise Flight”. The O I purchased has the factory installed system with the only limitation being not for use on takeoff. I never saw it written on paper as to the reason but was told that the limitation could/should be removed from early O’s. C02 was the reason. The limitation is not found on my 2002 O. Maybe someone has an answer. I vaguely recall an A/D for the A/C. Might want to look it up.

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47 minutes ago, exM20K said:

The protected surfaces look pretty clean to me and typical of how the system has worked for me.

Moderate    The rate of accumulation is such that even short encounters become potentially hazardous and use of deicing/anti-icing equipment or diversion is necessary.

Severe    The rate of accumulation is such that deicing/anti-icing equipment fails to reduce or control the hazard. Immediate diversion is necessary.

These definitions are "official," and I think they are not great.  "Severe" in a piston single or twin may be "Trace" on a turbojet with hot wings, ram air rise, and tons of climb.

Icing becomes severe if my system poops the bed.  It's all subjective.

-dan

As a jet pilot, I issued my PIREPS based upon accumulation on unprotected surfaces, mostly the wiper arm on Boeings. Airbus has a nifty lighted probe on the center post of the windshield that is nicely shaped and calibrated for determining icing conditions. The only time I have issued a "severe" is when it met the definition of "severe" where even windshield heat could not keep up.  The AIM also makes the admonishment that all intensities are "aircraft dependent" mostly to the point that even in light aircraft accumulation rates vary. An Aerostar is one of the biggest popsicles I have ever flown, maybe worse than a DC-9. I can tell you for a fact there is icing that a known ice Mooney or Bonanza/Baron can handle easily, in which an equipped Aerostar would struggle.

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