carusoam Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 Depending on which version of AC you get... the early ones came with additional limitations... Which, I believe can be updated to get better use out of the system... Modern aftermarket installations have no limitations... The important limitation comes with T/O power... running a compressor during the T/O roll can use some power that isn’t accounted for in the POH... Holy cow the TKS company is trying hard to sell a few extra systems... for icing at +30°C. That would be disastrous world wide... @CAV Ice Protection @CAV Ice Interesting TKS manual/supplement. Do you guys know who writes these? Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAV Ice Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 @carusoam we write the Flight Manual Supplements for our FIKI (08100-FMS) and no-hazard systems (04600FMS). Not sure where the +30°C came from. The temperature in our FIKI FMS is a NOTE on page 21 Section 4 Normal Procedures which states: "Conditions exist for icing when the indicated outside air temperature is +3°C or below and visible moisture in any form is present." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronr Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, CAV Ice said: @carusoam we write the Flight Manual Supplements for our FIKI (08100-FMS) and no-hazard systems (04600FMS). Not sure where the +30°C came from. The temperature in our FIKI FMS is a NOTE on page 21 Section 4 Normal Procedures which states: "Conditions exist for icing when the indicated outside air temperature is +3°C or below and visible moisture in any form is present." @CAV Ice The +30° is in the TKS AFM Supplement published by Mooney and is seen on Page 15 (Section V Performance) and Page 29 (Section X Safety Information). On Page 5 (Section II Limitations) and Page 11 (Section IV Normal Procedures) the temperature mentioned is +3°C However, I brought up the Mooney AFM supplement not because of that probably typo, but because of information which seems to run counter to my understanding of aerodynamics (see above) with regard to landing distance. Edited December 18, 2020 by ronr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 You can see the horizontal stab on a Mooney. If I don't see any ice on it, I go full flaps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 22 hours ago, ronr said: @CAV Ice The +30° is in the TKS AFM Supplement published by Mooney and is seen on Page 15 (Section V Performance) and Page 29 (Section X Safety Information). On Page 5 (Section II Limitations) and Page 11 (Section IV Normal Procedures) the temperature mentioned is +3°C However, I brought up the Mooney AFM supplement not because of that probably typo, but because of information which seems to run counter to my understanding of aerodynamics (see above) with regard to landing distance. I would send this typo to @Jonny... (I sent the typo over...) I assumed somebody got the °C mixed with °F... But, it is a critical few degrees when icing is a concern... the extra zero slipped in, adds to the confusion... Thanks go to the @CAV Ice team for the great support! ...and thanks to ronr for the added details of where this error can be found... +1 for pointing out the concern regarding landing distances... if it is confusing to one Mooney pilot... there is room for improvement... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottknoll Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 While we’re discussing the AFM supplement, I discovered two more interesting items and I’m wondering if MS & [mention]CAV Ice [/mention] can provide some insight.Limitation # 1 states that the Aft CG is now 49.5 for all weights, as opposed to 51 (M20R - Ovation). I don’t think I could get that far aft if I tried! I can’t figure out the reason for this. My understanding is that with ice we don’t want the tail to work as hard (downforce). I believe an aft CG would require less tail down force.Limitation # 9h says that dual vacuum pumps are required for FIKI operations. This can’t possibly mean that I’m not allowed to remove the vacuum system when I have an appropriate glass panel installed (with proper backups of course). But doing so would violate the limitations section of this supplement.I know I’ve provided more questions than answers. In an effort to balance that, here’s my personal opinion of the 120 knot limitation discussed earlier. It includes a caveat of “except for T/O and LDG”. So I would say the risk of being 40-45 knots fast at 200’ on final is worse than 1-2 minutes below 120 knots. My personal risk tolerance does not allow 200’ ceilings either...Finally, I can’t thank this group enough. This is our first airplane (purchased in April), and boy I should have joined mooneyspace years ago. I’ve learned so much just observing. My goal is to attempt return the favor in the years to come.Thanks for entertaining the musings of a new Mooney pilot! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 14 hours ago, carusoam said: assumed somebody got the °C mixed with °F. More likely is that a 0 was inadvertently added.... 30F is below freezing already... most of my training that I can recall states that icing is a possible danger between 3C to -20C, with 3C to -5C being the highest risk of stuff like SLD. Total “word of mouth” and speculation... but if it was a typo, I find the “extra 0” to be a more likely error. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 On 12/17/2020 at 12:58 PM, thinwing said: that is approaching moderate to severe in my book.... Yeah- that’s moderate (for sure) bordering on severe from the looks of the pictures, if that did indeed occur in minutes. Of course, that’s stated without any context to the flight other than your description. when the TKS system on my missile is primed and operating, it doesn’t collect ice horns like that on the panels... but I do get ice on the light fence and tip (same as you). I don’t think I’ve ever seen ice horns like that though, outside of nasa pictures.. and that’s after 8 years of winter operations in the pacific north west (Oregon)... with some pretty “reliable?” Icing patterns. Where did you say that occurred? Near the Great Lakes? pretty formations- but that’s something I’d prefer not to see on my wing ever- regardless of TKS, boots, heating plates, or even afterburners.... ok, I’d be ok with it if I had afterburners... but not that other stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Scottknoll said: While we’re discussing the AFM supplement, I discovered two more interesting items and I’m wondering if MS & [mention]CAV Ice [/mention] can provide some insight. Limitation # 1 states that the Aft CG is now 49.5 for all weights, as opposed to 51 (M20R - Ovation). I don’t think I could get that far aft if I tried! I can’t figure out the reason for this. My understanding is that with ice we don’t want the tail to work as hard (downforce). I believe an aft CG would require less tail down force. Limitation # 9h says that dual vacuum pumps are required for FIKI operations. This can’t possibly mean that I’m not allowed to remove the vacuum system when I have an appropriate glass panel installed (with proper backups of course). But doing so would violate the limitations section of this supplement. I know I’ve provided more questions than answers. In an effort to balance that, here’s my personal opinion of the 120 knot limitation discussed earlier. It includes a caveat of “except for T/O and LDG”. So I would say the risk of being 40-45 knots fast at 200’ on final is worse than 1-2 minutes below 120 knots. My personal risk tolerance does not allow 200’ ceilings either... Finally, I can’t thank this group enough. This is our first airplane (purchased in April), and boy I should have joined mooneyspace years ago. I’ve learned so much just observing. My goal is to attempt return the favor in the years to come. Thanks for entertaining the musings of a new Mooney pilot! Scott, Thanks for sharing the details that you have found... You are already returning some important knowledge that will be helpful for another MSer... Oddly I’m a pretty good tech writer... (well I used to be...) I missed the point about having two vacuum pumps... Electric TKS pumps... sure! (Ice cream pumps in some locations...) Vacuum pumps..? somebody was writing too quickly, and didn’t check their work properly... Actually, this was written when dual vac pumps were the way to go... But... it’s been more than a decade of G1000 systems with dual batteries and dual alternators... being acceptable... You will be amazed at how many things you may pick up, with a new set of eyes... So... If you see something... say something... I’ll second your details, and let somebody know... @Jonny (additional tech errors in FIKI docs found, and shared... + a question regarding WnB) The WnB question and the recommended speeds and altitudes might get addressed by the multiple CFIIs we have around here that are FIKI knowledgable.... Inviting @donkaye for some FIKI insight? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apenney Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 8 hours ago, M016576 said: Yeah- that’s moderate (for sure) bordering on severe from the looks of the pictures, if that did indeed occur in minutes. Of course, that’s stated without any context to the flight other than your description. when the TKS system on my missile is primed and operating, it doesn’t collect ice horns like that on the panels... but I do get ice on the light fence and tip (same as you). I don’t think I’ve ever seen ice horns like that though, outside of nasa pictures.. and that’s after 8 years of winter operations in the pacific north west (Oregon)... with some pretty “reliable?” Icing patterns. Where did you say that occurred? Near the Great Lakes? pretty formations- but that’s something I’d prefer not to see on my wing ever- regardless of TKS, boots, heating plates, or even afterburners.... ok, I’d be ok with it if I had afterburners... but not that other stuff! That was coming into KIWD - Ironwood, MI just south of Lake Superior on the Michigan Upper Peninsula. Lots of lake effect in the area. Averages about 200" of snow per year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf_Aviator Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 12 hours ago, carusoam said: Electric TKS pumps... sure! (Ice cream pumps in some locations...) Vacuum pumps..? somebody was writing too quickly, and didn’t check their work properly... Carusoam, could you elaborate a little bit on the ice cream pumps that you have mentioned ? Not sure if this is a joke or indeed a possible alternative... Just heard about the immense cost of TKS replacement pumps. Thank you ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronr Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 16 hours ago, Scottknoll said: Limitation # 9h says that dual vacuum pumps are required for FIKI operations. This can’t possibly mean that I’m not allowed to remove the vacuum system when I have an appropriate glass panel installed (with proper backups of course). But doing so would violate the limitations section of this supplement. @Scottknoll The AFM supplement I'm looking at reads: h. Dual Vacuum Pumps (Not Required on Aircraft with G1000 installed or Aircraft meeting the requirements contained in Note 24 of FAA Approved Type Data Certificate Sheet 2A3 Revision 51 or later revision) So I would opine that if you have a properly certified all-electric system with no requirement for a vacuum pump, #9h is not applicable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Graf_Aviator said: Carusoam, could you elaborate a little bit on the ice cream pumps that you have mentioned ? Not sure if this is a joke or indeed a possible alternative... Just heard about the immense cost of TKS replacement pumps. Thank you ! The pump origin seems to come from a different industry... But like anything else in aviation... your life can depend on them. So... no, finding a cheaper unqualified alternative wouldn’t make any sense.... There are too many parts that could be specific to TKS fluid... that could easily disable the wrong pump. PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... and my plane has no TKS system... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted December 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2020 On 12/14/2020 at 2:17 PM, jgarrison said: Two more coming soon. Damn tease. Hold one for me for 2nd quarter next year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 21, 2020 Report Share Posted December 21, 2020 High pressure buying tactic! Go NJM! GO O! Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottknoll Posted December 21, 2020 Report Share Posted December 21, 2020 [mention=19401]Scottknoll[/mention] The AFM supplement I'm looking at reads: h. Dual Vacuum Pumps (Not Required on Aircraft with G1000 installed or Aircraft meeting the requirements contained in Note 24 of FAA Approved Type Data Certificate Sheet 2A3 Revision 51 or later revision) So I would opine that if you have a properly certified all-electric system with no requirement for a vacuum pump, #9h is not applicable.Thanks for the great explanation! As a bonus, my AFM supplement has now been updated to revision H. It seems the previous owner was still on revision B... now to check the rest of the AFM!TCDS Note 24 says exactly what you would expect, remove all systems using vacuum pumps and you can remove said vacuum pumps.The depth of knowledge here is amazing! It would have taken much longer to solve this on my own. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 21, 2020 Report Share Posted December 21, 2020 Go MS! -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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