NJMac Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 I'm going to start my serious shopping early next year with the goal of upgrading to an Ovation 2nd quarter 2021. If I found the perfect bird without FIKI, I'm wondering how practical or difficult it would be to add ice protection after acquisition? What expense is involved? Side note, anyone with an off market ovation you're looking to sell same timeline, send me a PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmo Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 Not exactly what you asked for, but a very detailed account of a very successful (almost no loss of airspeed) TKS install on a Socata TB20 might give you some clues. Keep in mind full FIKI is more than just TKS, but an Ovation might have all the other bits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xavierde Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 I looked into this for my 252 and got quoted c. $55k for TKS and $65k for FIKI kit + install. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 35 minutes ago, NJMac said: I'm going to start my serious shopping early next year with the goal of upgrading to an Ovation 2nd quarter 2021. If I found the perfect bird without FIKI, I'm wondering how practical or difficult it would be to add ice protection after acquisition? What expense is involved? Side note, anyone with an off market ovation you're looking to sell same timeline, send me a PM. Find one already with FIKI since that only adds a fraction of the value on a used airplane according to Vref. Adding it after you buy the airplane would hardly ever make economic sense. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 Lancescaper is absolutely correct. Your best value is to find one with it already installed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenL757 Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 Agree. There is no inadvertent icing option for the Ovation...it's Fiki or nothing. The install cost (I check these fairly regularly for folks) is between $65k and $70k depending on who does the work, and there aren't many good shops that do it. The value-add for Ovations with TKS has typically been between $22.5k and $27.5k...regardless of when the install was done. Edit: If it helps, assuming the situation dictates, plan on 120 hours for the install from a shop that has done the job previously. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted December 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 Seems pretty easy to see what I'll be focusing on. Thanks y'all's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 Nice to haves... WAAS GPS... FIKI Installed O2 A/C and or 1k UL Come on over to the O’club..! -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V1VRV2 Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 Definitely an Ovation with a previously installed TKS system. If you want a plane you can dispatch 95% of the time With no geographic limits TKS is a must. Last 2 flights I made I encountered ice. One of the icing locations was down south in LA. Icing occurs everywhere... FL not so much. Be aware... TKS is an expensive system to maintain. Fluid is $13 a gallon best case scenario. You will need to run it year round to keep it primed and operating properly. I need to replace 2 pumps this week. Price options for each pump are... New... $4,313 Exchange (for rebuilt pump with core exchange)... $3,800 Rebuild (2-3 weeks)... $2,600 Amazing system with amazing capability but... Expensive to maintain. Expensive to use. Cruise speed... 3-5kt loss at cruise. Lose approx 100# useful load with the system filled and installed. I have A/C and TKS... useful load is 817 lbs. Such an amazing plane with TKS. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 Great numbers V1, Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJMac Posted December 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 11 hours ago, V1VRV2 said: Definitely an Ovation with a previously installed TKS system. If you want a plane you can dispatch 95% of the time With no geographic limits TKS is a must. Last 2 flights I made I encountered ice. One of the icing locations was down south in LA. Icing occurs everywhere... FL not so much. Be aware... TKS is an expensive system to maintain. Fluid is $13 a gallon best case scenario. You will need to run it year round to keep it primed and operating properly. I need to replace 2 pumps this week. Price options for each pump are... New... $4,313 Exchange (for rebuilt pump with core exchange)... $3,800 Rebuild (2-3 weeks)... $2,600 Amazing system with amazing capability but... Expensive to maintain. Expensive to use. Cruise speed... 3-5kt loss at cruise. Lose approx 100# useful load with the system filled and installed. I have A/C and TKS... useful load is 817 lbs. Such an amazing plane with TKS. Didn't realize pumps are so expensive. Gotta pay to play! Coming from my E @ 130kts, I'll be ok with a few lost off an R @ 170kts. Was planning on finding one without AC for UL considerations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 The Kelly Aerospace AC looks like it would be a bit easier to add later if wanted... Much easier than adding TKS... The cool part about shopping for an O with that many talents... there are so few around. Compare the first two you come across... if you can find that many... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 27 minutes ago, NJMac said: Didn't realize pumps are so expensive They’re not if you steal them out of a soft-serve machine ;-) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apenney Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 On 12/5/2020 at 12:19 AM, carusoam said: Nice to haves... WAAS GPS... FIKI Installed O2 A/C and or 1k UL Come on over to the O’club..! -a- Yes, very nice to have. This accumulated in about 10 minutes during my approach yesterday. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 1 hour ago, apenney said: This accumulated in about 10 minutes during my approach yesterday. Yikes! Did you keep your speed up on final? One thing I need to do more is to fly an ILS at >120 KIAS, which is the minimum icing speed. I'm typically 105 for the final segment... -dan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, exM20K said: Yikes! Did you keep your speed up on final? One thing I need to do more is to fly an ILS at >120 KIAS, which is the minimum icing speed. I'm typically 105 for the final segment... -dan So, what happens when you slow down to land? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 1 minute ago, PT20J said: So, what happens when you slow down to land? presumably one is out of icing conditions when transitioning to visual flight on the ILS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 In the event of extreme icing... leaves the definition of how much ice is it... to the reader. Slow down a few feet above a solid surface.... like a really long runway.... To avoid falling a long distance... Purely, a defensive strategy for a machine with one tiny known flight envelope... The flight envelope gets extremely small with additional ice on the lifting surfaces, thrust surfaces, and total weight... The stall speed will be unknown... so 1.3X the new stall speed will be unknown... lots of unknowns... The same strategy was demonstrated by the MSer with the baggage door wrapped around the horizontal stabilizer... Great natural art APenny! Inviting @Scott Dennstaedt to the conversation... Scott is our resident weather guy. PP thoughts only, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apenney Posted December 8, 2020 Report Share Posted December 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, exM20K said: Yikes! Did you keep your speed up on final? One thing I need to do more is to fly an ILS at >120 KIAS, which is the minimum icing speed. I'm typically 105 for the final segment... -dan Not fast enough apparently. I had already primed the system but didn't turn them on until I started to notice some accumulation. Most of the leading edge was fine but I was surprised by how rapidly it accumulated elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 AFM SUPPLEMENT M20M, M20R, M20TN TKS - ICE PROTECTION SYSTEM 7. Minimum airspeed for operation in icing conditions: M20M, M20R . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 120 KIAS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (except for T/O and LDG) If I recall the speed limit is to prevent high angle of attack attitude which would result in reduced ice protection on the wing. Section IV - Normal Procedures. In order to minimize ice accumulations on unprotected lower surfaces, maintain a minimum speed of 120 KIAS during operations in icing conditions 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 20 hours ago, apenney said: Not fast enough apparently. I had already primed the system but didn't turn them on until I started to notice some accumulation. Most of the leading edge was fine but I was surprised by how rapidly it accumulated elsewhere. Two different issues here. As @Cruiserpoints out, the 120 KIAS min is to keep the bottom of the wing and tail clean. The accumulation from failing to do as we vote in Chicago (early and often) when using TKS is something I think every TKS user will discover. Holding off until in icing is a false economy as you’ll use much more fluid to deice than you would have with an early application to coat the surfaces. your ice buildup photos are really beautiful and different. Very impressive buildup, especially on that wingtip light baffle. I found that to be the first place ice would accumulate on my 231, and it looked really cool at night, glowing with the nav lights. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alextstone Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, exM20K said: I found that to be the first place ice would accumulate on my 231, and it looked really cool at night, glowing with the nav lights. Night IMC in icing conditions...the highest of all "pucker factors"! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Jimmy Garrison just emailed about one coming available soon... 2000 M20R Ovation, 310hp Upgrade, Flight Into Known Ice Certified (FIKI). Two Owners, Always Hangared. 1700 Total Airframe and Engine (Note, this time may be lower - we are verifying a discrepancy between Hobbs and Tach - check with me on this when you call or write and I will explain). <1000 since all new Continental Cylinders. Midwest M20 310hp Upgrade with Hartzell 3-Blade 'Top Prop'. AST Weeping Wing TKS System for Flight into Known Ice. Garmin GNS-530W. Garmin GNS-430W. Garmin GTX-330ES ADS-B. WX-500 Stormscope. King KFC-225 Autopilot with Flight Director / Integrated Altitude Select / Vertical Speed Select / GPS Steering (GPSS). Shadin Fuel Computer and JPI EDM-700. 115cf Oxygen / Engine Heater / Co-Pilot Brakes / Standby Alternator / 102 Gallon Tanks. Nice Paint (White over Blue). Nice Interior (Tan Leather). $239,000. The Aircraft is scheduled for a Mooney Service Center Annual Inspection to begin next week. This would be an excellent time to have a prebuy done and possibly save some money moving the plane to a separate prebuy. The aircraft is located on the West Coast. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Dipper Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 It cost me 53K to have known icing installed on my Ovation in 1997. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apenney Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 21 hours ago, exM20K said: Two different issues here. As @Cruiserpoints out, the 120 KIAS min is to keep the bottom of the wing and tail clean. The accumulation from failing to do as we vote in Chicago (early and often) when using TKS is something I think every TKS user will discover. Holding off until in icing is a false economy as you’ll use much more fluid to deice than you would have with an early application to coat the surfaces. your ice buildup photos are really beautiful and different. Very impressive buildup, especially on that wingtip light baffle. I found that to be the first place ice would accumulate on my 231, and it looked really cool at night, glowing with the nav lights. Question to everyone: At what point on final would you slow from 120knots - the MAP or DA? Can't use speed brakes in icing, might be hard to bleed speed on a shorter runway. I suppose with the gear down at that speed, pulling throttle probably results in a pretty fast enough deceleration even in the Mooney. I'm never at 120knots at the DA or MAP so I've never tried it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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