Push button seat belt release for Johnson Bar Mooneys

[Gary0747]

After scraping my hand twice and unbuckling my seat belt twice while putting my gear down yesterday. Actually probably several hundred times to date.  I am determined to replace that latch type belt on the pilot side with a push button release buckle. I have seen somebody makes an entire belt system but all I really need is the short piece from the seat to the existing belt.  Has anybody done this and found a supplier?  I wonder if I could make the part as an owner produced part and stay legal. The current design should have an AD for safety reasons.  

[Skates97]

40 minutes ago, Gary0747 said:

After scraping my hand twice and unbuckling my seat belt twice while putting my gear down yesterday. Actually probably several hundred times to date.  I am determined to replace that latch type belt on the pilot side with a push button release buckle. I have seen somebody makes an entire belt system but all I really need is the short piece from the seat to the existing belt.  Has anybody done this and found a supplier?  I wonder if I could make the part as an owner produced part and stay legal. The current design should have an AD for safety reasons.  

Do you have shoulder belts? If not then I would buy the Alpha Aviation ones that are push button with the shoulder belts. It was the most expensive thing I did right after getting our Mooney and hopefully the one upgrade I will never need. 

https://alphaaviation.com/mooney-m20-a-thru-k-push-button-release/

[carusoam]

Skip this post... (Richard beat me by a minute...) look at Richard’s post above...
 

There is a lot of leeway for improved seatbelt designs from other industries...

There are airbag seatbelts that can be added to many Mooneys... (highly recommended)

Including Hooker Harnesses...

http://www.hookerharness.com/aviation.html

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic, all stuff I read about on MS...

Anything that keeps our faces away from the instrument panel is better than what came in most of the early M20s...

@SantosDumont reported switching over to alpha aviation belts to get the push button version...

Best regards,

-a-

https://alphaaviation.com/mooney-m20-front-fixed-strap-replacement-push-button/

[RLCarter]

+1 for the Alpha belts, I have the flip type buckles with shoulder harnesses and the buckles suck. I generally undo the co-pilot side but I try and always warn them it is a possibility 

[Gary0747]

I have had the shoulder harness kit sold by Lasar for many years. There is an attachment to the aircraft steel tubing that was very difficult to install and required installing a set screw into the tubing. It seems like a real waste to install an entirely different system when the only part that sucks Is the latch type buckle.   The placement of the buckle and the latch is pretty much set by the placement required for the shoulder harness across the body. I think the latching mechanisms regardless of style all fit a standard sized male insert from the lap belt.   I don’t think AM safe makes the belts they sell but will not sell just the push button latch belt. 

[RLCarter]

Pretty sure the Alpha belt were purchased through LASAR, it was one of the 1st things I ordered. I’ve considered sending mine to Alpha and have the push button buckles installed

[M20F-1968]

You can not legally install another belt buckle onto an existing harness assembly.  Further, a new buckle likely will not work with the tongue (what you insert into the buckle) that you already have.  I am different than most with a J bar Mooney as I have seat belts from an Ovation.  At first, I had the square type Amsafe buckle that open with about a 20 degree lift of the cover.  In order to get the buckle out of the way, I had the short side of the belt with the buckle shortened by abut 2 1/2 ".  That helped and an Amsafe repair station was able to do that work.  That did not solve all of the problem however.  I then noticed that the new Mooneys use a curve-shaped buckle that opens with a 90 degree lift of the buckle.  I was able to find a set of newer Ovation belts from a salvage yard and changed them out.  I then bend the first 1/4" of the cover inward to keep them out of the was if my hand were to brush by.  Much better solution.

That story may help someone find some hardware that works.   However, you can not legally change the Amsafe set-up.  You may be able to find some Amsafe seat belt sets with the new 90 degree buckle and attached shoulder belts.  In fact, I have a couple of such sets which I purchased on e-bay before I found the Ovation belts.  I would be willing to sell them to recoup costs if interested.  I can send pictures.

John Breda

[steingar]

Yeah, I have this happen now and again.  That's what the "S" is for in GUMPS.

[SantosDumont]

Yup just do the Alpha belt.  I bought it after the second time I completely ripped my finger apart on final.  I was tired of the adventure of trying to land with a mangled hand.  It sucks that it's $400 but better than bleeding out while trying to land an airplane one handed.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

Yeah, I have this happen now and again.  That's what the "S" is for in GUMPS.

And electric gear for the win!! 

Over thirteen years, many hundreds of landings, zero bleeding / busted / bruised / sore knuckles, zero unlatched seatbelts . . . . .

[Gary0747]

My belts were purchased from Lasar at least 20 years ago.  Likely even before AMSafe was in business.  In contacting AMSafe and telling them when and where I got them they said theirs likely would not match the ones I had.  I don’t mind purchasing an entire new set of belts but do not want to redo the shoulder belt attachment point to the tubular structure.  Plastic was cut and getting sufficient clearance between the steel tube and the metal aircraft skin was a bear of a job. 

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, Gary0747 said:

My belts were purchased from Lasar at least 20 years ago.  Likely even before AMSafe was in business.  In contacting AMSafe and telling them when and where I got them they said theirs likely would not match the ones I had.  I don’t mind purchasing an entire new set of belts but do not want to redo the shoulder belt attachment point to the tubular structure.  Plastic was cut and getting sufficient clearance between the steel tube and the metal aircraft skin was a bear of a job. 

Even if you get a complete set (with shoulder belt) they will mount to the same hardware you already have

[jamesm]

No we don't need another AD  for a simple fix. As it was explained to me... you simply the flip belt's latch mechanism so it against your leg/hip rather than facing upward where your hand hits it and unlatches it while extending the gear.  It happen to me on occasion. if you  really wanted to you could probably put strap  rubber band(s) or a like over the belt's latching mechanism.

 

James '67C

[0TreeLemur]

I had the same problem with scraped knuckles even with the buckle turned to face me.  

 

We bought new certified lap and shoulder belts from Aircraft Belts Inc. who have very competitive pricing.  They offer a lap belt with the push-button.   Plus, because the old ones up front have shoulder harnesses and my back seat belts didn't, we moved the belts with the knuckle scrapers from the front seats to the back seats.  This required adding shoulder harness attach points in the back seats, which I consider essential after hearing about the unfortunate fate of back seat Mooney passengers without them during crashes.

Haven't scraped a knuckle since. 

[Jim Peace]

Power of Mooneyspace....I read about all this when I was deciding on which should harness and belts to get....decided not to go cheap and get the push button and inertial reels ......great decision.....never had an issue

 

[0TreeLemur]

On 11/29/2020 at 7:39 PM, smwash02 said:

Is your clasp on the side of the seat? A simpler / cheaper solution might be to just re-situate the slides so it's centered.

If that's not an option, here is a place you could call and see if they'll sign off their 3 point push button. I'd be curious what they say if you wouldn't mind reporting back your findings.

That company is good to work with.   Like I said their pricing is very competitive.

[steingar]

19 hours ago, Hank said:

And electric gear for the win!! 

Over thirteen years, many hundreds of landings, zero bleeding / busted / bruised / sore knuckles, zero unlatched seatbelts . . . . .

Over 6 years no bleeding, no bruising, no sore knuckles, but the occasional sprung seat belt.  Like I said, what the "S" is for in GUMPS, which you're supposed to be doing anyway.  Did have one really interesting gear failure event, where Mrs. Steingar and I were wearing big poofy winter coats.  Because of the big coat the seat belt was further out.  I accidentally unlatched it, and couldn't see that I'd unlatched it because of the big poofy winter coat. Once in 6 years.  I can thandle that.

[1967 427]

Work typically shuts down for 2 weeks over Christmas and since we’re not going anywhere this year, I thought it would be perfect time to upgrade the lap belts to Alphas shoulder harness systems.  (Side note: we love and take pride in the appearance of the interior of our bird) My wife and I had a lengthy conversation about both the appearance and the operation of both the lever action compared to the push button.  Hands down we both feel the lever would be easier to operate than the push button (especially if inverted).  The level action clasp will match the rear seat belts.  The red button would look out of place.

When I called Alpha to see if I could get them on short notice, the only type they had on the shelf for immediate delivery was the push button and of course they also stated that they recommended the push button version for the exact reason everyone else has mentioned.  So I am waiting 2 months to get the type so many of you wish you didn’t have.  
 

My thinking: I am very deliberate in my actions as I am deploying my gear and don’t expect accidentally hooking the release lever.  It’s a C model (not a rocket ship) things aren’t happening that fast on landing. If I accidentally hit the release the lever I will re-buckle it.

[RLCarter]

52 minutes ago, 1967 427 said:

So I am waiting 2 months to get the type so many of you wish you didn’t have.  

Mine look brand new (black), order the push button ones and we’ll trade......

[carusoam]

The traffic pattern is where we get to fully test our multi-tasking skills...

Being super efficiency minded... some of us wait for as long as possible to drop the gear...

This is when the blood letting occurs, and you wife’s seat belt is the one that comes undone... 

Now it takes three hands to fly the plane, and not get blood on your wife’s fancy clothes...

Now she is super-distracted, and looking directly at you... while you try to secretly get that re-buckled...

 

PP thoughts only of how it used to be for me...

Best regards,

-a-

[1967 427]

On 12/6/2020 at 10:47 PM, carusoam said:

Now she is super-distracted, and looking directly at you... while you try to secretly get that re-buckled...

So a couple of years ago we were flying into Pine Mountain Lake and my approach was rather high and hot.  I could feel my wife’s eyes looking over at me...but not a word came out of her pie hole.  She clearly realized I needed to focus on the events that were unfolding.  When we were on the ground she stated that she considered informing me that our approach didn’t look normal.  I quickly interrupted her stating it was good thing you didn’t say anything as my reply would have been. “Hey, I’m f***ing this cat, your just holding the tail.”  With that said, we continued on and had a beautiful day.

[Jeph357]

I installed the alpha aviation belts and added these.

https://alphaaviation.com/lap-belt-sheath/

 seem to keep everything clear

 

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, Jeph357 said:

I installed the alpha aviation belts and added these.

https://alphaaviation.com/lap-belt-sheath/

 seem to keep everything clear

 

That's not a bad idea.   I'm always fishing the end off the floor and more than once a passenger has hooked up the wrong one before I got mine done.