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Interested in purchasing a J model, have some questions


Ryan ORL

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Thanks skip! ( and @skykrawler)
 

I’d like to claim English as my second language... :) (still working on it....)

But, then I’d have to start learning a new language to make that even remotely true...

+1 for Near identical... in length...

+1 for taking out T intersections for fluid flow... (six cylinder challenge)

+1 for smoothing airflow channels with gentle curves...

+1 for having tools that don’t get used very often... speed brakes and slips at altitude... using energy in an un-Mooney sort of way....  :)


Compare that to the long log style intake of the Bravo’s engine...

The log style intake is a design challenge... all the tube length and diameters can be selected to deliver a balanced airflow... but it is probably going to occur at one set of flight conditions...

Which is probably WOT and Max MP...(?)

The airflow and pressure are decreasing at each T as the log passes / splits off for each bank of cylinders...

The Continental intake systems include curvy tubes to elongate the shortest distance to the first set of cylinders, less curve on the way to the second set, and the least curve when going direct to the farthest set of cylinders...

In the end... they are all experiencing nearly the same resistance to air flow... which is helpful for balancing the airflow between all the cylinders over a wide range of volumetric air flow... that comes with a range of rpms and MPs...

The airflow is an odd type of non-steady state flow as valves open and close, and air accelerates and stops heading towards the intake valve... to add to the heavy math... air is compressible... so it’s density is changing along the way...

Hmmm... I wonder what the best conditions for balanced airflow is for the Bravo’s engine...(?) 

Doing an experiment over a wide range of MP and RPM, collecting Gami spreads.... at each set point would best determine optimized power setting to run LOP...

 

Lycoming has some curvy tube intakes... just not on any Mooneys that I know of...

Equal length intakes have been huge in the automotive world since the 80s... with the increased use of fuel injection...

 

Of course, equal length intakes and fuel injection are not required to run LOP... Hank reports good success running LOP in his carbureted M20C... a few Bravo owners have reported success running LOP...

the challenge for Bravo owners... LOP is a slower way to operate... slower and Bravo don’t often show up on the same page... :)

 

A carbureted M20F is known as the Turtle... aka M20G...  Even @TheTurtle ended up buying an M20F...

 

Bladders... cost extra to get them added... no unhappy customers... some weight added... not always a perfect solution...

Reseals... expensive when needed... not needed very often anymore... technology has changed, chemistry has improved, processes are well known...

 

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

 

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On 11/29/2020 at 11:53 AM, Ryan ORL said:

I actually am working with the pre-buy guys.  They're relatively local (one of them used to be in my flying club) so they were my first choice, and they're great so far.

Regarding the bladders... I thought all the Mooneys had bladders.  (Or rather, were not a wet wing)  Can you point me to some of the pros and cons?  Which do you prefer?

Regarding the speedbrakes, the Mooney I had flown was not equipped, but I thought I had heard they were relatively ineffective.  Is that accurate?

Good to know about the late model year MGTOW increase.

On speed brakes, you might be interested in @donkaye's thoughtful article on the subject here.

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On 11/28/2020 at 11:31 AM, carusoam said:

Six vs. four cylinders....

four cylinders, all the intake tubes are identical... balancing FF and air flow is much simpler...

Lycoming six cylinder Bravos are challenging to run LOP...

Continental six cylinder Os and Acclaims run LOP until they just turn off...

 

So... consider the long list of nice to haves... as just that... nice to have.
Not required.

Not a flight safety issue...

If you are buying a forever plane, fully finished... find one with everything in it... but don’t complain about the UL or speed... :)

Go TKS!

Best regards,

-a-

Any airplane with less than eight cylinders is a trainer.

Clarence

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Regardless of mods absolutely make sure there are no SB 208 corrosion problems.  Further it is worth every penny to have one of the big name Mooney Service Centers do your pre buy inspection.  I personally would not buy any Mooney unless this was done.

My opinion on mods after 700 hours with a J that came stock with most of them is:

Speed brakes — Great fun and totally unnecessary 

GAMI — No benefit on Lyc IO 360 

Brackett Air Filter — No big deal, saves a bit of maintenance, cheap.  Sounds like a few guys have forgotten they are even an STC.

Bladders — Religious argument with Mooney owners, I installed them in my 97.  Install is only simple if you are lucky and I was not.  Weight penalty is 35 lbs I think, not at home to check just now.  Bladder to bladder tubes tend to leak until you double clamp them.  Filler caps are very cool looking but you lose your wing fuel gauges if installed.  They are not bad to have but you can do a LOT of reseal work for what they cost to install.  Big names in tank sealing have good records and a warranty. 

One piece belly — Nice for your shop but installation will not pay out even at $100+ per hour shop time.  No disadvantages.

In fact, I think the answer in general is there are not any STC I can think of that are either “essential” or ruin the plane. 

A more important consideration perhaps Is to buy a plane with an autopilot you want to keep.  They are very expensive to retrofit and one that either does not work properly or meet your needs will make you sad every time you fly.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

On speed brakes, you might be interested in @donkaye's thoughtful article on the subject here.

My main desire for speed brakes is getting down from FL’s, Vne limits to about 1000FPM.  Twenty minutes is a long time to get down if you need to get down.  Other than that I would agree, nice to have but not needed.  

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Pardon my interest but if I want to slow down I just pull some power off   Get down early enough

Planning ahead or "unable" on the radio. 

I don't feel "shock cooling' is a problem on any 4 cyl engine

Now big 6 cylinder engines its an issue 

Never intended to imply slips while IMC on final. I've always been able to configure well in time while IMC in anything I've flown. 

You think a Mooney is hard try a whale or even a 757. 

I guess I just don't understand why all the issues with slowing down in time. 

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Speed brakes for E-descent... when you want to be on the ground now... but you are still at 12.5k’...  :)

Deploy brakes of all sorts and you are only minutes away from landing...

Shock cooling be dammed... it’s probably going to be a one way trip...

 

Other than that they are good for adjusting final approach speed... in a digital fashion... click once for on, click again for off...

 

Kinda like pulling the throttle back on a Brand Ce... only better... :)

Best regards,

-a-

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5 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

On speed brakes, you might be interested in @donkaye's thoughtful article on the subject here.

This was a good read, thanks!  That’s sort of how I assumed people would use them.  (“Keep the speed up on final” mostly, which I encounter a lot around our busier airports)

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10 hours ago, Ryan ORL said:

This was a good read, thanks!  That’s sort of how I assumed people would use them.  (“Keep the speed up on final” mostly, which I encounter a lot around our busier airports)

NO is always an option to ATC. No matter if its a Mooney or Boeing. You're the Capt of the airplane and its their job to separate traffic nothing more. If you can do what they ask without putting yourself in ANY jeopardy great do it. If not NO is a legal and safer response.  

Don't think its relegated to just small airplanes. I've had "maintain 210 to the marker" in 300/ 1/2 blowing snow in a 737. Can you guess what I told them? 

We all talk about a "stable approach" yet we all fall into the trap of "keep the speed up" Its one or the other. Take your pick. 

Now if you are in a 172 and doing 75 mph on a 5 mile final at a busy airport then YOU might want to rethink what you are doing like get more training for the situation at hand.

Remember its their job to keep traffic moving  ( Pushing Tin,   old movie) its your job to keep the airplane safe INSIDE your comfort zone. 

Refer back to 91.3

 

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29 minutes ago, cliffy said:

NO is always an option to ATC. No matter if its a Mooney or Boeing. You're the Capt of the airplane and its their job to separate traffic nothing more. If you can do what they ask without putting yourself in ANY jeopardy great do it. If not NO is a legal and safer response.  

Don't think its relegated to just small airplanes. I've had "maintain 210 to the marker" in 300/ 1/2 blowing snow in a 737. Can you guess what I told them? 

We all talk about a "stable approach" yet we all fall into the trap of "keep the speed up" Its one or the other. Take your pick. 

Now if you are in a 172 and doing 75 mph on a 5 mile final at a busy airport then YOU might want to rethink what you are doing like get more training for the situation at hand.

Remember its their job to keep traffic moving  ( Pushing Tin,   old movie) its your job to keep the airplane safe INSIDE your comfort zone. 

Refer back to 91.3

 

I just “lived” this earlier this week.  Keep your speed up traffic behind is...follow landing...I kept my speed up to 140k.  If they wanted more I was “unable” to give it.  Uneventful.  I was well clear of active with a long taxi to fuel pumps before traffic landed.  I have been vectored many times for faster tin.  No worries.  Happy to help them “push it”.  More Mooney time is quality time.  :) 

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27 minutes ago, cliffy said:

NO is always an option to ATC.

I think the point is that speed brakes makes it super easy to comply with what ATC is asking for, without causing any issues in your own cockpit. Of course I can tell ATC "no". But "yes" is just easier, quicker, etc, and if I can comply easily and safely, why not.

While you might not see the need to spend 10 AMU to add them to your Mooney, if you happen to have them, it just makes life that much easier. 

There are lots of modern conveniences we can of course, do without, but they often make life easier. 

I like my speed brakes a lot. I'm not a slave to them. I can certainly fly without using them. But there are plenty of times when popping the brakes is the easy and safe way. 

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After fueling and a long taxi I was lined up behind a Embriair waiting to depart.  I needed to cross 27.  A beautiful Cessna taildragger was ever so slowly approaching.  It appeared to be frozen in space.  I enjoyed every second of it, but thought the passenger jet front seats were probably eye rolling.  :) 

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39 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Don't think its relegated to just small airplanes. I've had "maintain 210 to the marker" in 300/ 1/2 blowing snow in a 737. Can you guess what I told them? 

They said the same to United behind me and can you guess what he said?  :-)    "NO we're not going to do that either"

Yes if it comes with SBs fine, good option to have but not in anyway mandatory for a Mooney. 

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Ryan, I haven't read through the entire thread but what I did read was great information. I was in your price range two years ago when I bought my J. If no one else has mentioned it, Jimmy Garrison is your friend contact him and he will put you on an email list with what he's got coming in. This is how I found my J. https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/

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@Ryan ORL here are some of the things I looked for when I bought my J in 2013 and some of the ones I wish I had known about:

  1. If you are traveling in it, a working 2-axis A/P is a "nice to have". Travel a lot and it becomes a "really nice to have".
  2. WAAS GPS.
  3. No airframe corrosion.
  4. Frequently flown engine. "Frequently" varies with people, but not a hangar queen. More important to me than low time and not flown. Many of us will take an almost run out engine flown 120+ a year over a low time one flown 10 or fewer for the past couple of years. In Lycomings, corrosion kills 'em.
  5. Removeable rear seats. With two people up front, you can load anything you want in the back.
  6. The 2900 MTOW year or newer. Mine is 2740, and while 160 lbs. does not seem like much, for those times you want to have more than two people, full fuel, and some baggage, it makes the difference between Go,NoGo, or Go a short distance and refuel.
  7. As you alluded to in one of your posts, avionics close enough to what you want to not need to do a rip and replace on the panel and center stack.

And for my "if it has it, okay; if not, okay as well" list:

  1. Speed brakes. I have them; I use them. Would have bought my plane if they were not there, but they have come in handy at times.
  2. New-ish paint job. Sort of falls under the "No airframe corrosion" above. You don't have to love the paint job, but if you really hate it, for probably less than $20K you can have it redone.
  3. Great glass all around. For me, it goes with the paint. When I have mine painted, it will get new glass.
  4. New interior. Again, something which can be personalized. Mine was...different when I bought it. Currently undergoing repair and upgrade. Can farm it our for anywhere from reasonable to outrageous sums of money. I am currently doing all leather seats, recover glare shield, new carpet and sidewalls, and repair/replace/paint all interior plastic myself in mine. When done, I will have less than $10 AMU in it. A M20K down the way had the same done by a high-end shop for a little less than $30 AMU.
  5. Tank bladders. They solve ever having to have the tank sealed, but you do give up about 35 lbs. This would be where the 2900 MTOW would really help out.

And then there are my non-negotiables:

  1. Full disclosure by the seller of any major repairs. Should be in the logs, but some times they are forgotten. I really didn't care if it was bellied into a wall, but I wanted to know the repairs were documented. (Got burned by this when purchasing my C172.)
  2. All logs. (See #1 above).
  3. Clear (or able to be cleared) title.
  4. In, or able to be in, annual.

I am sure there are many other items people will add, but these are what I used - or should have used - as my guidelines in buying my J. The only other item I would add for you is a hangar, since this one will live in Florida.

Good hunting!

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18 hours ago, moosebreath said:

Brackett Air Filter — No big deal, saves a bit of maintenance, cheap.  Sounds like a few guys have forgotten they are even an STC.

Hah!  I have the even more obscure Challenger Air Filter STC.  It's essentially a K&N air filter.  My IA got a kick out of it at annual, he laughed that it was the only time he's ever had to send someone to the auto shop to get an approved part (the cleaning kit).

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I was in your identical situation nearly 3 years ago.  I am very happy to have found and bought a J model with lots of upgrades, including 2900 lb GW increase, speed brakes, removable backs seats, leather interior, and much more.  The avionics are fine, but now I find myself wanting to spend tens of thousands to upgrade them.  And I probably will, with the help of co-owners, knowing this is not really a good investment.  I'm fine with that.  Although, I do think that if I had found a really nice F model with the avionics already done, I would have been just as happy.  

Part of the point here is buy the best plane you can possibly afford.  If you are like me, you won't regret the expenditure later.  I always tell my wife you don't so much buy a plane as you do invest poorly in it.  And yes, get a good autopilot.

Lastly, in the prebuy, have the shop tell you what the upcoming expenses might be, things that will be due within the next year or two and what they might cost.  Lazar does this.  A plane that is really "caught up" on these things is clearly a better deal than one that will require a bunch of maintenance work relatively soon.

And really lastly, make sure everything works, or that you know what doesn't.  Have a good Mooney CFI or someone fly it to check every element of every system.  Take nothing for granted.  Good luck!   

 

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On 11/27/2020 at 4:48 PM, Ryan ORL said:

Hi all,

I'm sure these types of questions get asked often, so I apologize in advance.  I'm a newbie to the Mooney community here, but I've been interested in purchasing one for quite some time.  I've finally gotten to the point where I am seriously considering doing it in the next month or so.

After doing a bit of searching to see what's on the market and thinking about my price range, I think I have decided a J model is right for me.  I had also considered an F model, but the (admittedly small) speed advantage of the J model is appealing, plus the J models that are available seem to be better equipped and less of a 'project'.   (I am hoping to buy something with the equipment I want rather than doing a whole avionics overhaul right off the bat.)

My 'mission' is basically IFR cross-country flying with my wife, which would seem to make really any of the M20 models pretty ideal for us.  We live in Florida, so there isn't often a need for very high-altitude flying (and therefore, I am not looking at any of the turbo-equipped models).  I also can more easily stomach the cost of an unexpected overhaul of the non-turbocharged engines.  My budget is ideally $110,000-$120,000.  Based on my preliminary research, it seems like that budget should be enough to find a reasonable example of a J model.  (Does that seem realistic?)

My personal experience level is moderate... I am a 600 hour part-time CFI/CFII, but virtually all of my time is in 172s/PA-28s.  My only actual hands-on experience so far with a Mooney is 10 hours or so I had in an M20F model a couple years ago, but I came away very impressed.  I expect the J model would fly fairly similarly, is that about right?

The most 'intimidating' thing for me about shopping for a Mooney so far is the huge variety of STCs that sellers advertise.  It seems like virtually every aircraft I look at has at least 2 or 3 STC'd modifications.

I guess my questions for this community would be... if you were shopping for a J model in my price range, what are the big desirable things to look for as far as STCs?  What are some early model-specific red flags I should watch out for (or ask sellers about) before I get deep into the process (pre-buy inspection, etc)?  Do you guys think my price range is realistic?  Does the year matter, or were the J models fairly consistent throughout the run?

Also, can you guys recommend any pre-buy services or brokers that specialize in Mooneys?  I have looked at SavvyPrebuy but have heard mixed reviews.

Thank you from a hopefully-soon-to-be Mooney owner :)

 

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I Searched for Mooney for about a year. I just pulled the trigger with a partner on a 1988 and M20J 205.   I looked at a C model, two or 3F models, and ended up with a J. At the outset, your budget is not crazy. My general rule is to buy the best equipped, Lowest Time aircraft you can afford. Then of course you have to factor in your general mission. Having been the maintenance director for a flying club for over 10 years I became very familiar with the cost of maintaining aircraft, five of them. My search Was concentrated on “times”. I wouldn’t even consider an F or a J with  a 1700 hr  engine and high time prop. Almost invariably when you overhaul  an engine, you run into incidentals, engine mounts, flexible hosing,
baffling, exhaust issues, etc. and of course the cost of the engine doesn’t include removal and reinstallation. So at the end of the day, to hang an overhauled Lycoming 360 Is North  of   $30,000 if the engine is overhauled by a reputable shop.  Could go to 40  if your crank is Not serviceable, your case is Not serviceable, etc. etc. Unless I could  steal the airplane, I would simply keep looking. One of the “Gotchas”  Is the “no back spring” within the landing actuator, another issue is the roll cage system as they are subject to very very expensive corrosion.  The issue was remedied by Mooney sealing the roll cage with a two-part Epoxy. I don’t Recall the year.  
 

It out my partner has been looking for a Mooney for years and  is a walking talking money directory and knows all the ins and outs. I have limited time in a Mooneys but  I distinctly recall the honest to goodness speed and efficiency of the aircraft. It fits  my mission perfectly, My wife and two children to the Bahamas.  If you’re looking for Garmin this and  Garmin that, try to find an aircraft that has already had them installed. You can find an aircraft in your price range but it’s gonna be a mid time engine, it’s not going to have a 430W and 530W, GTN 345, but will have basic avionics if that’s all you need. I think settling on J is a good move. My buddy owns a 135 operation and he convinced me years ago, get a partner, or two. And that’s what I’ve done. I couldn’t be any happier. Since the airplane is on Jack’s, (we are byIng it with a fresh annual) We are replacing the landing gear actuator. It is serviceable as is but we don’t wanna take any chances. Good luck with your search. Yes there are a lot of STC’s, one we are looking at very seriously is the upgrade to 2900 pound gross. It is really Just paperwork and a new airspeed indicator with different markings. It brings your useful  to a few pounds shy of 1000.
Best of luck in your search.

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