Landing Height System for Mooney

[EricJ]

7 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

Let’s face it....a 200’ height call out offers significance to us instrument rated pilots....most LPV and ILS approaches have a DA (above AGL) of about 200’...

this call out (if not broke out) definitely would prepare you for the “go miss” timing. 

That's kind of what I was thinking, but the other side of that is that the terrain is often not flat all the way out to DA, so it might be more confusing than helpful.   Maybe it's something you get adapt to?   When do the airliner callouts start and do they work off of height above terrain?

[Microkit]

During the certification process; the issue for not going to 200’ directly was the worry that a pilot on an IMC approach to minimums may abuse it and decide to go lower than 200’ AGL because they did not hear the LHS callout at that point.  

The issue and worry is still there, but LHS users are aware that the call-out may not happen at all due to various terrain or descent profile. For example, if someone is descending in steps rather than continuous; the system will cancel the profile it just built and start over before announcing, the system needs many consistent lower readings to enable the announcement routines.  Once the airplane stops descending (if above 50'), the system assumes it's not landing and rejects the previous readings, to start monitoring again.  For 50' or below, it will announce regardless if the airplane stayed at straight-and-level and any deviation of the level will be announced.

Additionally, we will be recommending that in hard IMC (non-visual situations 300’ and below) the system should be disabled (Audio off) until clear, or at least ignored and to follow the certified IFR equipment on board.  

One thing to note; at 300’ or 200’ AGL, the airplane maybe flying over a structure or a building, or cars and such, so the correct term for the height announcement is not really AGL, it should be “above solid surface” so when the 200’ callout is triggered; it means there is a solid surface, not necessarily the ground, 200’ below the airplane.

We are planning to have the initial firmware which adds the higher range around the middle of next month, also we are not going to link the high range to the current routines; we are planning to keep the 100’ to below exactly the same with no changes at all as these routines are working perfectly. Higher range would have its own routines that are unrelated to the current proven code.

 

[bradp]

@Microkit @Mscheuercan you guys verify whether the audio LO pin from the LHS needs to be connected or not for an interface with a PS engineering 8000 series panels? (Ie does audio LO ground internally on the PMA 8000BT?) 

Seems like if I choose DME input 21/22, the lo is grounded through pin 22; the logic in the notes says if AUX is pressed, the unit passes DME  

 

But of I choose AUX 23, the low is ganged with I switched inputs and grounded to pin 43  

 

Thanks much!!

[Microkit]

12 minutes ago, bradp said:

@Microkit @Mscheuercan you guys verify whether the audio LO pin from the LHS needs to be connected or not for an interface with a PS engineering 8000 series panels? (Ie does audio LO ground internally on the PMA 8000BT?) 

Seems like if I choose DME input 21/22, the lo is grounded through pin 22; the logic in the notes says if AUX is pressed, the unit passes DME  

 

But of I choose AUX 23, the low is ganged with I switched inputs and grounded to pin 43  

Thanks much!!

We would suggest using AUX before DME if you have a choice.  Certain audio panels expect DME to have a higher power output, we are limited by our certification not to push more than 0.9W of power into the audio wires.  You can test first if you prefer to use DME just to make sure the audio level is acceptable.

If the audio panel LO pin is grounded; do not connect it to the Green wire.  Keep our Green wire floating (cut short & heat-shrink) on our connector.  BUT; you can use the Audio LO (coming from the Audio panel) and connect it to our Yellow (LHS ground, in addition to actual ground wire as well), especially if you are planning to connect the unit ground to the airframe point at the wing.  This way, there is no need to use the "wire shield" to join both grounds (Audio Panel & LHS unit) together.  The Audio LO from almost all aviation Audio Panels are Audio Ground Reference.  It's to tell the Audio Panel what is the ground reference of the audio signal coming in on the Audio HI pin.

[donkaye]

I installed the new firmware and audio file this afternoon and flew it.  I followed the provided instructions, and the installation went smoothly.  On testing the audio before flying, as described in the instuctions, it appeared that it wasn't working.  After a call to Nidal, he reminded me that the test was to be done through the audio panel and headset, and not the iPad I was using to do the upgrade.  The audio worked perfectly.  A couple of trips around the pattern showed the system to work perfectly in the air.   The "Check Gear" callout is now done immediately after the 200 foot callout.

I think everyone is going to enjoy the new capability.

[JohnB]

Wow. just checked Mooneyspace after a long while and didn't previously know I needed this, but yes I'm in!  I agree having a tie in to the gear indicator switch at some point would be great if at say 100 feet, the gear is not down and locked a very loud gear emergency warning could be potentially added which would be great if the FAA allowed this. Anyhow, Im in, website says its backordered. Any idea of how long is delivery from order?

 

Looking forward to getting my LHS.

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, JohnB said:

Wow. just checked Mooneyspace after a long while and didn't previously know I needed this, but yes I'm in!  I agree having a tie in to the gear indicator switch at some point would be great if at say 100 feet, the gear is not down and locked a very loud gear emergency warning could be potentially added which would be great if the FAA allowed this. Anyhow, Im in, website says its backordered. Any idea of how long is delivery from order?

 

Looking forward to getting my LHS.

I've had the system for almost 6 months, and every time I hear the "Check Gear" callout my attention is immediately drawn to the gear light.

[Will.iam]

On 5/25/2021 at 12:14 PM, EricJ said:

That's kind of what I was thinking, but the other side of that is that the terrain is often not flat all the way out to DA, so it might be more confusing than helpful.   Maybe it's something you get adapt to?   When do the airliner callouts start and do they work off of height above terrain?

A319 A320 A321 all start callouts at 50ft but maybe that could be our company’s ordered altitude. The B757 B767 was also 50ft starting altitude with calls every 10 ft increments unless you were really rushing to the ground and the system couldn’t say an altitude before you passed it the system would jump to the next altitude and skip that one. I. E. If you heard 50 30 then arrest your sink rate now you are coming down too fast. 
it is based off radio altimeter and terrain database. It is an issue for airports that are on a cliff as your first call out might be 30 ft as you come over the cliff. Guam is a good example of that. Or you will hear it call early or repeat the 50ft call if the airport is at the bottom of a hill. San Diego airport is a good example of that if you are not still high above the approach as the airbus can slow down or go down but to do both simultaneously is harder to do especially on a steeper 3.5 degree approach path.   

[Microkit]

9 hours ago, JohnB said:

website says its backordered. Any idea of how long is delivery from order?

 

In stock tomorrow.  Shipping 2-3 business days after order. 

[Gagarin]

This device can make all your landings greasy. I have terrain warning on my GNS530W that shows terrain threat in red, yellow and black. Very useful to me on departure at night from Quito Ecuador. It shows you the mountain passages.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnB]

Just ordered mine.  Anyone know approximately how many hours this should take (or took) to install?

[larrynimmo]

3 hours ago, JohnB said:

Just ordered mine.  Anyone know approximately how many hours this should take (or took) to install?

I worked under the guidance of my A&P....removed seat, passenger side panel and pulled in a shielded 4 conductor cable following other wires...removed one bottom panel near back of plane, ran wire into the void where the rear inspection cover is.  Installed plastic sheave where exposed to any edges as anti-Chaffe....  Strip cable and solder on a provided 4 conductor connector body.  Do the cut out of the panel as instructed and attach the device to the panel...plug in, screw panel back in place.   Put interior panel s back together, reinstall the seat.

remove glare shield...route wire up....I made my all white wire ground....white orange fuse protected 12+, white/green wire taped off, then the critical wire white/blue I hooked to an abandoned wire marked DME.  Prior to putting on glare shield, power up, program, set volume then reinstall glareshield ..took me 6 hours, but I also installed an on/off switch on my panel.

I would expect an experienced AP to get it done in less than 4 hours..keep in mind it takes time to reinstall side panels but aligning for those pesky little screws

[GeeBee]

On 6/6/2021 at 6:27 PM, Gagarin said:

This device can make all your landings greasy. I have terrain warning on my GNS530W that shows terrain threat in red, yellow and black. Very useful to me on departure at night from Quito Ecuador. It shows you the mountain passages.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I remember my first landing in Quito, at night, to minimums. That place gets your attention! My respects flying a Mooney at night out there!

 

[JohnB]

12 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

I worked under the guidance of my A&P....removed seat, passenger side panel and pulled in a shielded 4 conductor cable following other wires...removed one bottom panel near back of plane, ran wire into the void where the rear inspection cover is.  Installed plastic sheave where exposed to any edges as anti-Chaffe....  Strip cable and solder on a provided 4 conductor connector body.  Do the cut out of the panel as instructed and attach the device to the panel...plug in, screw panel back in place.   Put interior panel s back together, reinstall the seat.

remove glare shield...route wire up....I made my all white wire ground....white orange fuse protected 12+, white/green wire taped off, then the critical wire white/blue I hooked to an abandoned wire marked DME.  Prior to putting on glare shield, power up, program, set volume then reinstall glareshield ..took me 6 hours, but I also installed an on/off switch on my panel.

I would expect an experienced AP to get it done in less than 4 hours..keep in mind it takes time to reinstall side panels but aligning for those pesky little screws

Hugely helpful. I got a labor quote of 32 hours for install which seemed high to me. Do you have a mooney this was installed in?

[hammdo]

Yikes! On My C it was $400 to install and hook up to the ADF switch in the audio panel...

-Don

[donkaye]

6 minutes ago, JohnB said:

Hugely helpful. I got a labor quote of 32 hours for install which seemed high to me. Do you have a mooney this was installed in?

John, that is so far out of the ballpark as to be ridiculous.  They didn't want the job.  I watched Peter do the job and with all the bells and whistles (switch and circuit breaker) it took him 7 hours for my Bravo with no shortcuts.

[JohnB]

3 hours ago, donkaye said:

John, that is so far out of the ballpark as to be ridiculous.  They didn't want the job.  I watched Peter do the job and with all the bells and whistles (switch and circuit breaker) it took him 7 hours for my Bravo with no shortcuts.

Awesome thanks Don, I’ll shop around. That’s more like it for a $1,000 part 

[larrynimmo]

10 hours ago, JohnB said:

Hugely helpful. I got a labor quote of 32 hours for install which seemed high to me. Do you have a mooney this was installed in?

 

10 hours ago, JohnB said:

Hugely helpful. I got a labor quote of 32 hours for install which seemed high to me. Do you have a mooney this was installed in?

Yea M20J....and it really came out nice...go to your mechanic and show him my comments

[larrynimmo]

Another possibility is that you could just run the cable and let the mechanic do the rest... 

it took less than 1/2 hour to drill the panel, solder the 4 wires and install the module (once the wire was pulled in)

removing the glare shield, finding a useful + power source and an unused ADF or DME wire and neatly make up wiring should be left to a skilled professional...took me an hour and a half largely because my A&P made me route a wire from a breaker and install a panel mounted fuse and a power switch...this process took me 1.5 hours.  I would hope an experienced mechanic would have done this under an hour.  It gets a lot easier if you could find an unused + wire, or fuse off of another circuit...LHS has almost zero electrical load and can be fused with a 1 amp fuse

[JohnB]

12 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

 

Yea M20J....and it really came out nice...go to your mechanic and show him my comments

Excellent. Ill see what they say. I actually asked my mechanic who said since it hooked into the audio system it would have to be installed by an avionics shop (I bet that's just him being too busy) but ill forward your comments to the avioncs shop thanks! Sounds like this is something that a mechanic or an avionics shop could do based on your excellent description of the process. 

Edited June 12, 2021 by JohnB

[bradp]

Hangar elf with permission.  4 hrs tops.  Install includes running the wiring (1hr) and cutting the inspection panel (another).  Audio panel interface was another hr or so. OCD was one more.  The OCD hour can be spent filling out logbooks. . 

[Microkit]

On 6/11/2021 at 5:44 PM, JohnB said:

Hugely helpful. I got a labor quote of 32 hours for install which seemed high to me. Do you have a mooney this was installed in?

A 32 hrs quote is very high, as everyone else mentioned.

A Piper Malibu (Pressurized) told us he was charged 10 shop hours, mainly because of the procedure to penetrate a pressurized vessel.

The advantage of Mooney is the top glare shield can be easily removed; giving access to the back of the Audio Panel to insert one pin/wire.  This step should be really fast.  If you look back at Page 4 of this thread; we posted some photos received by a customer showing the installation steps.

Removing the seat and side panel to push wires through is also fast.   2-3 hours in total is a reasonable number.

Many told us they did not take their airplane to a shop; they just get a freelancer A&P that came to their hangar and they both did the installation, cheaper hourly rate than a shop and the airplane stays at the hangar in the event something was missed in the preparation part and must wait for it to arrive (such as the special Garmin wire pin that get inserted into the back of Garmin unit).

You don't need an avionics shop to insert a pin into an audio channel at the back of the intercom unit; an A&P should be able to do that.  The FAA wants a radio endorsed mechanic for equipment that “transmit” such as COM radio.

[JohnB]

7 hours ago, Microkit said:

A 32 hrs quote is very high, as everyone else mentioned.

A Piper Malibu (Pressurized) told us he was charged 10 shop hours, mainly because of the procedure to penetrate a pressurized vessel.

The advantage of Mooney is the top glare shield can be easily removed; giving access to the back of the Audio Panel to insert one pin/wire.  This step should be really fast.  If you look back at Page 4 of this thread; we posted some photos received by a customer showing the installation steps.

Removing the seat and side panel to push wires through is also fast.   2-3 hours in total is a reasonable number.

Many told us they did not take their airplane to a shop; they just get a freelancer A&P that came to their hangar and they both did the installation, cheaper hourly rate than a shop and the airplane stays at the hangar in the event something was missed in the preparation part and must wait for it to arrive (such as the special Garmin wire pin that get inserted into the back of Garmin unit).

You don't need an avionics shop to insert a pin into an audio channel at the back of the intercom unit; an A&P should be able to do that.  The FAA wants a radio endorsed mechanic for equipment that “transmit” such as COM radio.

That is hugely helpful thank you! Especially the part that I don't need an avionics shop to do this. Thank you very much! Ill try to find an A&P in Southern California that's not too busy to do this one. Thanks again

[larrynimmo]

At the very least....Check with your A&P or avionics shop ..but most will let you pull your own wire....doing so should get your installation to be minimal at both ends.

avionics shops don’t want to pull interiors apart...

[dfurst]

My avionics shop quoted me one day.  I will let you know how it goes.