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Surefly Runs Rough


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10 hours ago, cctsurf said:

Sorry, had to go have dinner with the family.

Thanks, ok, I was looking at the graph I posted later and was confused.

I'm having difficulty finding a definitive plug wire output diagram for slick magnetos, I had to assemble it from the --less-than-helpful-- diagrams supplied by Surefly.  Lycomings fire 1-3-2-4, and Surefly supplies the picture below (without the blue).  Am I correct in numbering the leads as I have?  The magneto I replaced was a s4ln-200, which is left rotation.

446207539_FiringOrderPinout.jpg.5365c546c3260ce757c3e0f929f4a00e.jpg

I think your problem is the firing order and harness routing. Here’s a picture I had on my phone of my install. Left rotation may be from viewing the engine from the front versus the rear. I’d need to check lycoming notes to confirm this. 
I think it should be like this:

3  2

1  4 
 

Hope this helps.

 

FED68460-81C7-41CA-903F-48052C338FF4.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Sabremech said:

it works beautifully with fast starts and extremely low mag drop on the left side. 

That's what I like to hear and what I'm hoping for myself.  I want to get this electrical wiring straightened out, I think that is worth redoing.  My Cherokee has slick mags, so I can compare wire routing to it...  Thought of that overnight...  But I appreciate any direction you can give.  I've never been comfortable with the battery wiring as it sits, anyway.

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2 hours ago, Sabremech said:

Along with the Surefly, I installed a new Slick harness that had the cylinders marked on them to where they were routed. It definitely was not straight forward to me as the first time installing one, but it works beautifully with fast starts and extremely low mag drop on the left side. 

The slick harness I installed had the same plug locations etched on it as the Bendix harness I kept on the right mag.  I ended up putting the Surefly leads on the bottom plugs and the old mag on the top plugs.  The lengths were just adequate.  Like above, great starts, runs extremely smooth.  

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/20/2020 at 9:32 AM, cctsurf said:

That's what I like to hear and what I'm hoping for myself.  I want to get this electrical wiring straightened out, I think that is worth redoing.  My Cherokee has slick mags, so I can compare wire routing to it...  Thought of that overnight...  But I appreciate any direction you can give.  I've never been comfortable with the battery wiring as it sits, anyway.

Any update on your issue? 

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Well...  I rewired the electrical and ran the surefly power wire directly to the battery...  Still the same problem.  The Surefly rep believes it to be the cheap ACS spark plug wires.  I still wanted to verify that the old voltage regulator wasn't giving me too much voltage variation (it's an old Motorola, and I am told that they are prone to failure), so I ran it up this morning with an oscilloscope attached to the electrical bus and to the battery where the surefly now gets its power.  I found that my voltage varies by ~0.05v... even away from the battery.  Not bad.  (I have a couple more logs on the savvy share I mentioned above, I note where I was doing "mag" checks in the notes below the graphs.)

So...I will order new ignition wires Monday.  Planning on the New Horizons Maggie harness, probably will get a whole harness if they will mix and match for me...  The other side harness isn't that old, but having a new one on hand never hurts...I am not changing it right now, that magneto has been ROCK SOLID...no need to mess with success!  I mentioned them as a possible source for a harness and the surefly rep said that was the company he was going to recommend.  He said that he was going to have them make a set of wires for his RV that had the ends for car spark plugs.  I'd like to go surefly on bottom plugs and magneto on top plugs, but I'm really not interested in changing anything more right now.  I'll probably talk to Maggie about making the lengths enough so that I can switch things around, and put rigid elbows on all cylinders.

I specifically asked about the wire routing, and when I stated that I had matched it to my Cherokee's slick magneto routing, he said that I was fine.  (which, btw, is the routing I worked out above).

Another thing he mentioned fairly strongly is that the spark plug gap must be at least as wide as allowed by the type certificate.  He stated that the FAA didn't like them to suggest a wider gap, but he encouraged me to gap them wider...  I now have them gapped to 0.025".  I believe he recommended even wider.

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Good grief....

This thread convinces me that a plain old magneto system that has been around forever is the best way to go and way less down time and uncertainties...  I needed to replace a mag recently during annual and had none of this nonsense....

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7 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

Good grief....

This thread convinces me that a plain old magneto system that has been around forever is the best way to go and way less down time and uncertainties...  I needed to replace a mag recently during annual and had none of this nonsense....

This thread might well have scared me off but I bought in to surefly first thing last Jan.  It installed without issues and improved operations in every way.  So I am blissfully ignorant of all these difficult that I am now surprised others are having.  I hope you guys work it out.  it is potentially a fantastic thing for all the reasons already said.

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16 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

This thread might well have scared me off but I bought in to surefly first thing last Jan.  It installed without issues and improved operations in every way.  So I am blissfully ignorant of all these difficult that I am now surprised others are having.  I hope you guys work it out.  it is potentially a fantastic thing for all the reasons already said.

Same here.  Hoping it lasts as long as they say, which will make it a win for price as well!

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MS has one outstanding SureFly issue that I’m aware of...

I’m sure it isn’t fun to be the one...

Others were related to the oddball gear that caused challenges with timing... no matter how hard they try to set the timing... it was a few degrees off...

Now that is a known issue... get different gear, all good...

The Maggie ignition systems wires... We have a Maggie guy around here...

-a-

@HoJo87 

 

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14 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

Good grief....

This thread convinces me that a plain old magneto system that has been around forever is the best way to go and way less down time and uncertainties...  I needed to replace a mag recently during annual and had none of this nonsense....

Admittedly, there were some major updates that needed to happen on my plane, and therefore it may not be the best test case of how bad surefly is.  On the other hand, I am beginning to wonder if I am throwing good money after bad and what is really causing my surefly problems.  I hope a better set of wires will help.  This is my last effort before looking to get a refund.  The Maggie wires are using 5mm diameter silicone insulator containing a 7-strand stainless steel core wire.  The ACS harness states that it is 5mm diameter silicone insulator containing a 16-strand braided copper wire.

I have long complained about the state of ignition in General Aviation.  I cannot believe we are still running magnetos...lawn mowers went away from these to at least CDI years ago!  We virtually never have ignition problems in anything (and that with 1 ignition system).  I welcome Surefly and electroair as a MAJOR leap forward.  Which is one of the reasons I went this direction.  Perhaps they have leaped over the other associated technologies from the dark ages we use on our aircraft.  For example, Spark Plugs and wires.  I can buy a set of wires for my car at the local auto parts store that will handle electronic ignition for $30-40, for most cars...  I never considered that a $180 set might not be good enough...(especially when we reviewed the reviews on Aircraft Spruce)

On the other hand, I have to say as well, I wonder what performance I can expect from the surefly if I have an electrical failure.  Say an alternator diode failure (as I have had) that would superimpose a large alternating current on the voltage bus...  I'm guessing that I would also have misfiring...  I wonder if "pull alternator field coil breaker" should be added to the rough engine checklist...

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16 hours ago, cctsurf said:

Admittedly, there were some major updates that needed to happen on my plane, and therefore it may not be the best test case of how bad surefly is.  On the other hand, I am beginning to wonder if I am throwing good money after bad and what is really causing my surefly problems.  I hope a better set of wires will help.  This is my last effort before looking to get a refund.  The Maggie wires are using 5mm diameter silicone insulator containing a 7-strand stainless steel core wire.  The ACS harness states that it is 5mm diameter silicone insulator containing a 16-strand braided copper wire.

I have long complained about the state of ignition in General Aviation.  I cannot believe we are still running magnetos...lawn mowers went away from these to at least CDI years ago!  We virtually never have ignition problems in anything (and that with 1 ignition system).  I welcome Surefly and electroair as a MAJOR leap forward.  Which is one of the reasons I went this direction.  Perhaps they have leaped over the other associated technologies from the dark ages we use on our aircraft.  For example, Spark Plugs and wires.  I can buy a set of wires for my car at the local auto parts store that will handle electronic ignition for $30-40, for most cars...  I never considered that a $180 set might not be good enough...(especially when we reviewed the reviews on Aircraft Spruce)

On the other hand, I have to say as well, I wonder what performance I can expect from the surefly if I have an electrical failure.  Say an alternator diode failure (as I have had) that would superimpose a large alternating current on the voltage bus...  I'm guessing that I would also have misfiring...  I wonder if "pull alternator field coil breaker" should be added to the rough engine checklist...

I talked to Surefly about this and they stated that it has out of range voltage detection and will shut the SIM down. 

While I like the idea of not being dependent on the electrical system, I have an full replacement engine monitor that also uses the battery so I really shouldn't take off with a known charging system issue anyway or fly for long period of time with a failed alternator.

I just installed one and, in hindsight, I'm not sure if I would have.  It cost more than I expected because I had to buy a harness and then buy a new magneto gear.  Additionally, I am seeing higher CHTs than I would like.  I might end up switching it to fixed timing mode.  I have 24 hours on it now and am reserving judgement.

There are some things I do like:  Easier starting (but never was a big issue for me), seem to be able to lean an extra .5gph, no need for 500 hour inspections, no ozone exposed plastic parts to break, failure mode is more likely a shutdown than erratic firing

In the end, if it lasts to TBO, it will be a wash in cost and a little bit better performance. 

 

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1 hour ago, cferr59 said:

While I like the idea of not being dependent on the electrical system, I have an full replacement engine monitor that also uses the battery so I really shouldn't take off with a known charging system issue anyway or fly for long period of time with a failed alternator.

I just installed one and, in hindsight, I'm not sure if I would have.  It cost more than I expected because I had to buy a harness and then buy a new magneto gear.  Additionally, I am seeing higher CHTs than I would like.  I might end up switching it to fixed timing mode.  I have 24 hours on it now and am reserving judgement.

There are some things I do like:  Easier starting (but never was a big issue for me), seem to be able to lean an extra .5gph, no need for 500 hour inspections, no ozone exposed plastic parts to break, failure mode is more likely a shutdown than erratic firing

The world is dependent on the electrical system...  It's not a big deal as long as the alternator/generator works.  I've had too many failures of electrical systems to be comfortable (one on my long cross country during primary training).  When I installed my JPI, I retained the Tach and the Manifold pressure gauge.  If you've ever had a failure of one of those (I have), having a backup is a great thing. 

I have quite a bit into this install now, I hoped I would not have to use the replacement gear, but alas I did.  I'm waiting for my second ignition harness (If this harness works, I'm going to look for a refund for the 1st one).  I have heard about the higher CHTs, I don't know if I can afford those she runs hot enough as it is...I've thought of going to the fixed timing mode, we'll see.  Wish it was on the right side of the engine instead of the left, so R&R would be easier.

I never had hard starts, so that's not an advantage to me.  I really like the idea of better spark and not having to worry about the 500 hour inspections...  Having worked a lot on cars and small engines, I would expect the timing advance would be a good thing for gas mileage.

As you say, we'll see.

 

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3 minutes ago, cctsurf said:

The world is dependent on the electrical system...  It's not a big deal as long as the alternator/generator works.  I've had too many failures of electrical systems to be comfortable (one on my long cross country during primary training).  When I installed my JPI, I retained the Tach and the Manifold pressure gauge.  If you've ever had a failure of one of those (I have), having a backup is a great thing. 

 

 

I would have done the same thing, but it was already installed... 

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I have bought two ACS harnesses in the past, and they are both in the trash.  The one I bought for the Surefly in my mooney misfired badly.  I took the mag cap back off and saw burning on the springs.  The springs were 3/16 shorter than the slick harness springs, and were barely making contact.  Check this out on yours, I'm  curious.

Jeff

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10 hrs on the one David (Sabremech) installed on the C I just bought from him. I sent it to David back in July and so far, no issues. New Horizons did the half harness set for me, has flown great with great startups...

-Don

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Just replaced both mags in my 20C and similar problem.  Mechanic ensured me he checked the timing thoroughly...guess what.  He was a bit embarrassed but the timing was not set correctly.  The plane sounded fine before the mag change but worse after.   Timing is everything.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well... I finally got the half harness from Maggie harnesses and carved out some time to work on the bird.  If you look at the harnesses, the further away one is the one that has been on the plane.  It's springs are rusty. 

IMG_20201220_172608.thumb.jpg.3f0242c5f184cf9d0fb32a4d37c17977.jpg

I put my phone behind the surefly and took the other picture. You can see the rust on the plastic around the connectors...  I'm sure that makes great contact... Now to install the Maggie Harness and see if I can get it to work correctly.  Gotta check/clean the contacts before installing. IMG_20201220_172649.thumb.jpg.6437f028386358dda28e1b702d86e067.jpg

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Great pics cct!

The environment inside the mags is really an oxidation heaven...

the high voltage sparks are good at producing O3 (ozone) which is really strong at oxidizing things.... including the plastic gears inside the regular old mags...

Thanks for sharing the details.

Best regards,

-a-

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Finally got time to install the Maggie Surefly Harness.  What a difference!  She ran like a Swiss Watch!  Run away from the ACS harnesses! 

On 12/8/2020 at 9:18 AM, Jblanton said:

The springs were 3/16 shorter than the slick harness springs, and were barely making contact.  Check this out on yours, I'm  curious.

I would suggest that they were even shorter than that.  1/4" or more!  Useless.

 

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