Moving up to a Mooney?

[buzzard]

Hey gang - 

I'm a forum lurker coming out of the shadows for my first post. :) I've owned a Cessna 150 for about 10 years. Love it and fly the heck out of it (avg 30-40 hours/month recently) but have become enamored with the cost vs performance of the vintage Mooneys. I have conflicting missions - on one hand I enjoy almost daily "fun" flights into and out of local grass and short strips and I'm trying to build time to open some professional flying opportunities. But I also recently got my instrument rating, would like to travel more, finish my commercial, and would be great to fly with more than one light passenger at a time. No regrets about the C150 at all. It has served me well for 100s of hours and at 5gph of mogas the cost to operate is insanely low. But its slow speed, limited useful load, and VFR-only avionics really limit it to a very specific role that some days I feel like I am outgrowing. 

Curious to see if other have made a similar ownership move and would be willing to share their insight. I realize that this is a Mooney group and will probably skew to "buy a Mooney" responses, but I'd be interested to hear your experiences. Have you moved up and never looked back? Or are there days that you miss the simplicity of a primary trainer to just enjoy flight? Will I be shell shocked by the comparable costs of ownership? Will maintenance be a new league? 

Along the same line of thought, would an M20C be the most logical entry? I fly on a budget and although I've seen prices wildly range from about $30-60k, the M20Cs seem to be the closest price-wise to what I could expect to get for my 150 in today's market. (I'd be a buyer on the low end of this range). FWIW, I wouldn't necessarily object to an example that was at or beyond TBO if the price was right - I recently OH'd the engine in my 150 so I understand the process and pitfalls and think I know what I'd be getting in to. 

Welcome any advice and insight that you'd be willing to share. 

Thanks! 

-Jim 

 

  

[RobertGary1]

The cost of a m20c will be similar although maintenance will not. If you need a full tank reseal for instance that’s around $10,000. New pukes (suspension) is $1000 plus labor. 
 

-Robert 

[Boilermonkey]

If you're near HFY (Greenwood, IN) there is a 1/3 or 1/2 partnership in a M20C for sale (selling my share as I'm moving into a Bravo).

[rbridges]

It sounds like you need/soon will need an IFR bird with some cross country capability.  The C is great.  I love mine, but bargain C models can get you in the wallet later.  Maybe partner with someone to get a nice one.

 

[EricJ]

It's hard to beat the bang-for-the-buck utility of a C model, especially if you get one reasonably equipped or have a budget to spend to get it the way you want it.

Maintenance will definitely be higher than the C-150, but still won't be insane.

Are you going to keep the C150?   They are definitely fun little airplanes.

[steingar]

The Mooney can go into those short turf strips, but there is a pucker factor.  Other than that Mooneys are great.  Throttle down a bit and you can do the puddle jumper flying you like.  Climb up, power up and you can eat some serious miles.  But aircraft at the lower end of the scale tend to be a bit sketchy for IFR, panels are often old and basic.  And yes, complex aircraft cost more to feed and maintain.  The short body Mooneys are probably the most parsimonious in this regard, but they're still spendy.

[buzzard]

Thanks guys. Great discussion, I appreciate the insight. I know it was kind of an open-ended inquiry but based on the responses you guys get the gist of my dilemma.

 

 

 

[Hank]

4 hours ago, buzzard said:

Thanks guys. Great discussion, I appreciate the insight. I know it was kind of an open-ended inquiry but based on the responses you guys get the gist of my dilemma.

• Yes, a Mooney will cost more to own, operate and maintain than a 152. Expect ~20 hours for the annual, plus repairs / replacements / upgrades.
• Pattern speeds in my C are very, very similar to the 172 I learned in as a student.

1. 172 was 70 knots, final at 65 knots.
2. M20-C is 90 mph, final at 85 slowing to 75 mph over the numbers.

• Yes, it's possible to move directly from a trainer to a Mooney. Many of us here did so; I made the leap five weeks after my PPL checkride, with 62 hours in my logbook.
• The "simplicity of a primary trainer" is still there, almost--there are two levers to set speed instead of one, and there's the wheels to put up and down.
• My C can fly right with 172 and Cherokees, by just reducing the throttle. It's been long enough that I don't recall exactly, but on Airplane Ride Day at the airport, we flew 100 mph, which meant full power climb, turn crosswind, reduce throttle ~1/3, turn downwind, reduce throttle to near 100 mph, set 2300 and lean, then reduce throttle until I'm no longer catching up to the plane ahead of me.
• Flightseeing can be fun, just set 2300 and reduce throttle as desired; lower Takeoff flaps if going around 90 mph. I generally aim for 110 or so just for improved flight control feel.
• My Mooney will make the same trip as a 172, with about 30% time reduction while also saving 10% in fuel. Not sure about fuel burn at the same speed, I've never wanted to travel that slow. 
• My general experience:  flying saves about 1/3 the distance of driving, and my C model Mooney will do the trip in about 1/3 the driving time.

Have fun, enjoy shopping and don't think a low-priced Mooney will be a bargain!  There are many, many threads here about what to look for, what to avoid and how to do a Pre-Purchase Inspection.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Hank

[skydvrboy]

Don't think that you will have to leave the low fuel burn fun flights behind.  I fly an F model (fuel injected) and just did a flight test last week to see what kind of mpg I could get flying at maximum range speed and engine settings.  I found I can fly at 105 mph burning 4 gph all day long... literally, since it has 64 gallon tanks!  I would never fly it that way on a trip.  For that I would increase the fuel burn to 8 gph and the speed to 165 mph.  All running lean of peak.

Once you have some experience and can nail your air speeds, short grass strips will be no problem.  Anything over 1500' will be doable and 2000' is comfortable.

[StevenL757]

9 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

The cost of a m20c will be similar although maintenance will not. If you need a full tank reseal for instance that’s around $10,000. New pukes (suspension) is $1000 plus labor. 

I certainly agree with the price of the pucks, but new pukes pay a bit more than older pukes.  ;-)

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Mr. Buzzard!

You have enough ownership experience to be comfortable with stepping into the Mooney world...

1) As you can see... from skydvrboy... you can dial back the Mooney to achieve some awesome hours of operation...

2) Put the coals to it.... and fly at 150mph...

3) Mooneys are designed around X-country flying... since the M10 Mooney Mite crossed huge swaths of land....

4) They are also docile and pretty gentle to fly around the pattern as well...

5) Like any other plane... expect to get some transition training as your insurance will proudly pronounce....

6) After your first year goes by... all the surprises, and expenses are pretty well under control....

7) My old M20C lived outdoors... annuals and insurance were the expenses... flying a Mooney is a blast...

8) I looked at a few planes before deciding on the M20C... C152, C172, P140, M20C...

9) The purchase prices are so close for the four seaters... 

10) the biggest differences... engine hours, instruments and avionics, paint and interior....

11) If selling the C152 is very popular... great trainer, easy to own, will go quickly...

12) If not selling... the M20B, C, and for a little bit more... M20E, make great entry level Mooneys... AND forever-planes... allowing you to keep the C152 for your CFI type work...

Somebody just sold an M20C in a weekend’s time...

Best regards,

-a-

[buzzard]

Again, thank to all who took time to answer here. If it's not already apparent, I am a planner and the info here has really helped fill in some of the blanks that just perusing the forums didn't answer. One of my biggest takeaways here is that it sounds like the vintage Mooneys can also be flown "recreationally" - a huge plus for me given my mixed mission. Also confirms my impression that they should stay at the top of my list if/when I move up to a four place. Didn't mention it in my initial mission list, but the in-laws live 180nm away by air but a circuitous 5 hour drive by car, so that 150mph would really be an added bonus to shuttle the kids out there for a long weekend. 

Biggest concern for me remains the costs. I don't like to finance toys and my flying budget is relatively modest, so the cash outlay to acquire a decent one plus keep a reasonable reserve for a big repair might still have even a C model slightly out of reach for now. Going to keep learning about them as well as the common concerns (tanks, pucks, cage corrosion, etc) and try to be in a well informed position if one becomes available. I live in the northern Philly suburbs, so I may drop into Robbinsville or Lancaster and introduce myself to the Mooney gurus there. 

Thanks again. 

-Jim

[carusoam]

Jim,

The M20C is perfect for that...

I used mine to go from NJ to MA...

It wasn’t a bad drive as a young couple... 5-6 hours unless it rained.... or snowed...

The M20C made the trip in under 1.5 hours...

My wife could see her in laws and be back before the day ended.... 

The kids could see their grandparents for lunch...

The Mooney makes family much closer...

Buy the Best Mooney you can... fly efficiently when needed...

Don’t get the cheapest one... they are better for the mechanics around here...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic.... or plane sales guy...

best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

I can say this to the OP.  The 150 is worth high teens to low 20s depending on condition.  That means an input of teens to low twenty thousand to step up to a Mooney.  Hate to be harsh, but if the outlay of that kind of coin is that big an impediment the OP should stay with the 150 or get out of aviation altogether.  It just isn't for the feint of wallet.

[buzzard]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

I can say this to the OP.  The 150 is worth high teens to low 20s depending on condition.  That means an input of teens to low twenty thousand to step up to a Mooney.  Hate to be harsh, but if the outlay of that kind of coin is that big an impediment the OP should stay with the 150 or get out of aviation altogether.  It just isn't for the feint of wallet.

Well taken, but I think you missed my point. I realize that the 150 is on the bottom of the food chain but as an owner for nearly a decade, a pilot for going on 20 years, and having just gone through the overhaul process, I do feel like I'm not naive to the financial exposure that owning presents. The costs of moving up are not an impediment, just require a different allocation of funds and a potentially different mindset. I can write the check but I'm not an open wallet owner, and one or two $10k annuals might really take the luster off of a new plane. If vintage Mooneys are often budget busters -- which it sounds like they could be -- then maybe one isn't the best plane for me right now. That's all part of what I'm trying to determine as I learn more about them. 

And I'm still trying to gauge if the Mooney market has been equally as crazy, but Cessna prices have skyrocketed lately. A 150 that I know well sold recently with clean airframe and low time engine for low $30k before it was even listed. I haven't tested the waters but would hope that my solid 200SMOH 150 would potentially be in that ballpark. If so, the acquisition cost gap doesn't appear quite as wide as suggested. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by buzzard

[buzzard]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Jim,

The M20C is perfect for that...

I used mine to go from NJ to MA...

It wasn’t a bad drive as a young couple... 5-6 hours unless it rained.... or snowed...

The M20C made the trip in under 1.5 hours...

My wife could see her in laws and be back before the day ended.... 

The kids could see their grandparents for lunch...

The Mooney makes family much closer...

Buy the Best Mooney you can... fly efficiently when needed...

Don’t get the cheapest one... they are better for the mechanics around here...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic.... or plane sales guy...

best regards,

-a-

^ This. You're in my neck of the woods, so I'm sure that you can appreciate the mind-numbing drive from Philly to west-central PA.

 

[smwash02]

I wasn't fortunate enough to have the time to fly 30-40 hours a month like you with my 150, but I put in a solid 10 or so a month the 5 years I owned it. It started as a 'I just want to fly around' and graduated to 'I want to go somewhere.', which sounds like you.

I didn't want to lose my current mission profile -- general flying around and grass strip flyins, but also didn't want the fuel burn of a 182 and didn't need the useful load so I bought a C with a J bar and it did everything my 150 did, but better.

If sounds like you're involved from the maintenance perspective, so I don't think you'll see a significant increase in cost there so long as the expensive stuff is in good shape when checked out during your pre-buy.

If your mission is similar to your 150s with some travel, you don't need a lot of useful load or 4 full seats, the C will fit you perfectly. It did for me until my mission changed.

[gsxrpilot]

I owned an M20C for two years and 400 hours. Annuals were about $2500 each time and that included fixing extra stuff. Insurance was cheap at $800/yr. I didn't have to change gear pucks, or reseal tanks, or overhaul the engine. It was just a simple, good running, airplane. And at 8 gph for better than 140 knots, most of the time, it was cheap to fly as well. We quickly discovered that the whole country was now in range. And took full advantage. 

[steingar]

4 hours ago, buzzard said:

Well taken, but I think you missed my point. I realize that the 150 is on the bottom of the food chain but as an owner for nearly a decade, a pilot for going on 20 years, and having just gone through the overhaul process, I do feel like I'm not naive to the financial exposure that owning presents. The costs of moving up are not an impediment, just require a different allocation of funds and a potentially different mindset. I can write the check but I'm not an open wallet owner, and one or two $10k annuals might really take the luster off of a new plane. If vintage Mooneys are often budget busters -- which it sounds like they could be -- then maybe one isn't the best plane for me right now. That's all part of what I'm trying to determine as I learn more about them. 

The problem is simple.  You take risk in buying an airplane, any airplane.  Even new ones can have issues, like the fellow with a new Mooney trying to get warranty service.  No matter the airplane you can wind up with an expensive surprise after you get it.  The good news is the short body Moonies are a bit better in this regard.  The manual gear and hydraulic flaps are simple, bulletproof and inexpensively repaired.  Maintenance costs are going to be significantly higher, lots more to inspect.  The big gotchas are engine and tanks.  Remember, if the tanks haven't been sealed by one of the three places that really does it they're either leaking or will. That, and your insurance is going to get speedy.

4 hours ago, buzzard said:

And I'm still trying to gauge if the Mooney market has been equally as crazy, but Cessna prices have skyrocketed lately. A 150 that I know well sold recently with clean airframe and low time engine for low $30k before it was even listed. I haven't tested the waters but would hope that my solid 200SMOH 150 would potentially be in that ballpark. If so, the acquisition cost gap doesn't appear quite as wide as suggested. 

Dunno about C prices.  I just checked Trade a Plane and didn't see any horrible surprises, but there weren't many for sale.  Winter, I guess.

[buzzard]

26 minutes ago, steingar said:

The problem is simple.  You take risk in buying an airplane, any airplane.  Even new ones can have issues, like the fellow with a new Mooney trying to get warranty service.  No matter the airplane you can wind up with an expensive surprise after you get it.  The good news is the short body Moonies are a bit better in this regard.  The manual gear and hydraulic flaps are simple, bulletproof and inexpensively repaired.  Maintenance costs are going to be significantly higher, lots more to inspect.  The big gotchas are engine and tanks.  Remember, if the tanks haven't been sealed by one of the three places that really does it they're either leaking or will. That, and your insurance is going to get speedy.

Dunno about C prices.  I just checked Trade a Plane and didn't see any horrible surprises, but there weren't many for sale.  Winter, I guess.

Great points, thank you! Absolutely understand your point about risk. Part of my process here is understanding what that additional risk looks like with a more complex airplane, and then deciding how much I'm willing to tolerate in exchange for speed and space. 

 

As far as prices, there's a '62 C model on Barnstormers right now for $32,500 that went pending within a few days of listing. On paper, seemed like an intriguing mid-time example with newer pucks and extended tanks. I haven't seen enough yet to know if this was a low outlier. 

 

[carusoam]

Buzzard,

Interesting pricing observation...

I bought my M20C in Y2K... it was the lowest cost C in my neighborhood...

I paid 34amu for it... 20 years ago... it had a loran in it...

To eliminate the risk of what can be hiding in there... there is a procedure called the pre-purchase inspection.... PPI...

If you take it to an independent from the owner, Mooney knowledgable mechanic... he can find the things that would crush your aviation dreams before you own it...

Expensive stuff... corrosion, fuel tank leaks, engine overhauls... all easy to avoid...

I didn’t pay enough for the PPI... but I did get lucky! 
 

So much changes over the decades... M20Cs are still great Mooneys!

There is a really nice M20C coming to market, posted today by its previous owner...

Best regards,

-a-