Tail number changed in a weird way

[SD Flyer]

I’m looking at an airplane which has a very unclear history about the tail number change. Basically somebody just changed tail number on the fuselage and updated neither update airworthiness certificate nor registration. Few years later registration got updated, but airworthiness certificate still has an old tail number. Serial number stayed the same and matches on airframe, airworthiness certificate and registration.

I don’t see anything which would stop me from moving forward with this airplane but it feels something is fishy about this situation so I would like to ask for an opinion from Mooney community.

Do you see any major issues with tail number being changed in such a weird way?

[ArtVandelay]

I would carefully check there is no lien on the plane. Was the plane located along the southern border, I wonder if it was used for illegal activities?


Tom

[PT20J]

There is a procedure for changing a N-number. The aircraft should have the number permanently affixed and a current registration and airworthiness certificate with matching registration number. I’d get the seller to clean this up before purchasing.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/special_nnumbers/
 

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[GeeBee]

Without all the data on the AC being correct the airplane has no AC.  Ask me how I know.

 

[Ragsf15e]

Definitely don’t proceed until that’s squared away.

Not sure if you were planning this or not, but couple hundred bucks well spent will get you an escrow service that will give you a good idea if the title is clean or not.  They get the docs from the FAA, but they’ll give you their take on it all the way back to the factory.

[philiplane]

You have ten days to get a revised AW certificate once a new tail number is applied to the plane. After that, it can't be flown, legally.

And expect a MAJOR hassle with the FSDO when you walk in to get a revised AW certificate. If you can prove it hasn't flown, OK, but otherwise the outcome depends on how far the inspector wants to go with the paperwork for a violation case.

[Schllc]

The ELT and the transponder has to be reprogrammed for the correct tail number as well.  This goes with log entries. 
I would go to the faa site and search for damage history by serial number. It will follow the plane this way regardless of the tail number. 
 

http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/AircraftQuery.shtm#SUBMIT

[carusoam]

Sounds like a murder mystery... 

What was the logic for changing its tail number?

Like any plane purchase... have all its documents in a row prior to purchase...

Unless you like projects that don’t fly for a really long time...

The hard part of changing a tail number is removing the old one and applying the new one in an aesthetically pleasing way...

The proper documentation should have been the easy part...

Since the easy part wasn’t done... there must be something hiding in there...

The basis of a typical PPI is proving the plane is airworthy... so it can be flown...

Fortunately, this one was proven to be unairworthy before the screw drivers left the tool box...

If the owner wants to sell the plane as an AW plane, have it pass the PPI....

If he wants to sell it in un-AW condition, that has a discounted value for that...

If this is your first plane purchase... walk backwards slowly, while looking over your shoulder... your safety is important.

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[FoxMike]

If you really want the airplane have the current owner straighten out the registration.  When he gets done make sure it has been done correctly.  Hire someone who knows about these things to help.  Changing an N number is not done casually, you need to know the reason(s).

[Pete M]

Why not just change the number back to the original when u register it? Seems easier since legally the number was never changed. Get the faa records as well. Used to cost 8 bucks:) title search, ect...

[kortopates]

Why not just change the number back to the original when u register it? Seems easier since legally the number was never changed. Get the faa records as well. Used to cost 8 bucks:) title search, ect...

But then he’d have to change it back on both the fuselage and aircraft registration. Changing the N number on the registration is a different process than merely changing the owner name with a Bill of Sale. But don't know if it's any harder or easier than changing the AW cert.


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[kortopates]

The ELT and the transponder has to be reprogrammed for the correct tail number as well.  This goes with log entries. 
I would go to the faa site and search for damage history by serial number. It will follow the plane this way regardless of the tail number. 
 
http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/AircraftQuery.shtm#SUBMIT

Not the ELT, but the NOAA beacon registration. The ELT transmits a hex code from the FAA registration. True for the transponder and other things like the POH, Wt&Bal.....


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[Schllc]

6 hours ago, kortopates said:

Not the ELT, but the NOAA beacon registration. The ELT transmits a hex code from the FAA registration. True for the transponder and other things like the POH, Wt&Bal.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, premier in ft laudersale removed my elt, sent it out, and reinstalled it, AND I had to update the registration with noaa. 
let’s just say if I were to find out they lied to me and this didn’t need to be done, I wouldn’t be surprised. 
But it’s what happened about three months ago, and I’m pretty sure it’s required. 

[ArtVandelay]

Well, premier in ft laudersale removed my elt, sent it out, and reinstalled it, AND I had to update the registration with noaa. 
let’s just say if I were to find out they lied to me and this didn’t need to be done, I wouldn’t be surprised. 
But it’s what happened about three months ago, and I’m pretty sure it’s required. 

The modern EPIRB ELT you have to do this, the old versions that just transmit a homing radio broadcast I don’t think it requires any changes?

[Jerry 5TJ]

13 hours ago, kortopates said:

Not the ELT, but the NOAA beacon registration. The ELT transmits a hex code from the FAA registration. True for the transponder and other things like the POH, Wt&Bal.....

Each 406 MHz ELT transmits a unique identifier but it is not the ICAO code assigned to the aircraft.  The ELT’s manufacturer sets the unique identifier and it is not alterable in the field.

The NOAA registration database links the ELT identifier to the specific aircraft and to the contact information to call first if the ELT transmits a distress signal.

If you don’t register the ELT first responders won’t know who to call. The NOAA registration is required to be updated every 2 years to keep the contact information current.  

The aircraft’s ICAO hex code is entered into the Mode S transponder so the aircraft ID is available to the interrogator.   If you change transponders the aircraft’s ICAO code has to be entered and saved as part of the configuration.  

[Missile=Awesome]

On 11/13/2020 at 9:59 PM, Schllc said:

The ELT and the transponder has to be reprogrammed for the correct tail number as well.  This goes with log entries. 
I would go to the faa site and search for damage history by serial number. It will follow the plane this way regardless of the tail number. 
 

http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/AircraftQuery.shtm#SUBMIT

Thanks.  That was fun.  Five owners in 40 years.  NY, TX, AZ, SD & IA.  Our N Number change was to match previous owners initials.  One minor accident (with J engine prior to Missile conversion) prop strike with porpoise landing in gusty conditions.  Also a weird landing light wire contacting the exhaust and damaging plugs (found at annual) in history...Apparently this was a “known” problem and had been “fixed” before.  Hmmmm.  I will bring this up with my A&P.  Never been here and drilled down to the level by serial number before.  Interesting.

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Each 406 MHz ELT transmits a unique identifier but it is not the ICAO code assigned to the aircraft.  The ELT’s manufacturer sets the unique identifier and it is not alterable in the field.

The NOAA registration database links the ELT identifier to the specific aircraft and to the contact information to call first if the ELT transmits a distress signal.

If you don’t register the ELT first responders won’t know who to call. The NOAA registration is required to be updated every 2 years to keep the contact information current.  

The aircraft’s ICAO hex code is entered into the Mode S transponder so the aircraft ID is available to the interrogator.   If you change transponders the aircraft’s ICAO code has to be entered and saved as part of the configuration.  

^^ This.

The only reason to send an ELT out for service is if it is broken.   If the OP's wasn't broken, there shouldn't have been a reason to send it away.   If the NOAA registration had to be changed they probably got a different ELT back with a different identifier.

 

[kortopates]

12 hours ago, Schllc said:

Well, premier in ft laudersale removed my elt, sent it out, and reinstalled it, AND I had to update the registration with noaa. 
let’s just say if I were to find out they lied to me and this didn’t need to be done, I wouldn’t be surprised. 
But it’s what happened about three months ago, and I’m pretty sure it’s required. 

Perhaps you imported the aircraft? The ELTs are shipped with a unique identifier that is country specific, so if yours was originally sold and installed for a foreign registration then that would make sense. That too would explain why you had to update the NOAA registration if it already had your contact info.

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Perhaps you imported the aircraft? The ELTs are shipped with a unique identifier that is country specific, so if yours was originally sold and installed for a foreign registration then that would make sense. That too would explain why you had to update the NOAA registration if it already had your contact info.

I honestly don’t know anything more than I was told, which is that the elt must be programmed to the tail number, which required removing the unit and sending it to someone to update the new tail number and reinstall. 
the noaa registration is a separate thing than can be done online. 
the plane was new so there was no importing from another country. 

[carusoam]

The plot thickens as it twists...

Is now an international mystery?

Is it possible to return the tail number back to its original?

Or is the registration from a different country?

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

A 406 MHz ELT has no concept of N-number. When activated, it transmits a 15-character hexidecimal Unique Identification Number. You are supposed to register the ELT with the appropriate authority for the country where the airplane is registered, and that's what links the UIN to the aircraft registration number and your contact information within the registering agency's database. Here's the installation manual for a popular ELT.

E-04-Manual-single-page.pdf

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[Schllc]

5 hours ago, PT20J said:

A 406 MHz ELT has no concept of N-number. When activated, it transmits a 15-character hexidecimal Unique Identification Number. You are supposed to register the ELT with the appropriate authority for the country where the airplane is registered, and that's what links the UIN to the aircraft registration number and your contact information within the registering agency's database. Here's the installation manual for a popular ELT.

E-04-Manual-single-page.pdf 5.42 MB · 2 downloads

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[PT20J]

28 minutes ago, Schllc said:

 

I did some more research. It turns out that some countries use the 24-bit ICAO identifier (same as mode S transponder and paired with the aircraft registration number) rather than the UIN (which is paired to the ELT serial number). The US uses either. So, it is possible that the airplane was originally registered in another country as was noted by Paul, or it is possible that the ICAO format was used in he US for some reason. There is an international database at www.airframes.org.

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[Schllc]

I already clarified this, the plane has never been registered in another country. 
The plane is a little over a year old and I am the second owner. 
Perhaps new(er) planes all come with this type of elt. 
 

[PT20J]

7 hours ago, Schllc said:

Perhaps new(er) planes all come with this type of elt. 

It's a function of the regulatory requirements of the country where the aircraft is registered. Some countries use the UIN (a.k.a Standard Location Serial Number Protocol), some use the ICAO Mode S code, and some (like the US) allow either. In the US, if the UIN is used (which is most common), an N-number change only requires an update of the NOAA registration. However, if the ICAO code is used, the ELT would have to be reprogrammed with a new code.

E-04-Programing-Manual-Rev-1.3.pdf

An N-number change would also require a Mode S transponder to be reprogrammed with a new ICAO code obtained from the FAA when the new N-number is assigned. The log entry for this appears incomplete as it only shows that the Flight ID was changed. The GTX 345 will transmit both the ICAO code and the Flight ID. For GA, the Flight ID is typically the N-number but the two are actually unrelated. Flight IDs are commonly entered by airline crews to identify as a specific flight (e.g., AA317). 

Here's additional info from the FAA:

Resources - Notices - FAA - FAASTeam - FAASafety.gov.pdf

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